The Human Side of Finance Leadership, with Jessica McClain

TRANSCRIPT

Wassia Kamon: Welcome back to another episode of the Diary of a CFO. Today, I'm super excited to have with me a rockstar CFO, Jessica McClain. She's a chief financial officer for Girl Scout Nations Capital. And in this role, she has oversight of a big budget, strategic responsibility for finance, product program, retail merchandise, and business operations.

Now, before transitioning to the not for profit industry, Jessica spent over 11 years in public accounting. She is passionate about the accounting profession and has been an active volunteer for the last several years. Her accomplishments include being named a 2023 and 2024 CPA Practice Advisor Most Powerful Women in Accounting.

She is a Maryland Association of CPAs Women to Watch, Emerging Leader, a Black CPA Centennial 40 Under 40, CPA Award Honoree, an AICPA Outstanding Young CPA Award Recipient, and a four time CPA Practice Advisor 40 Under 40 Professional. We have a rock star with us today. Welcome to the show, Jessica.

Jessica McClain: Thank you.

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and I really appreciate the opportunity.

Wassia Kamon: I'm such a fan because I've been following you on LinkedIn. It's amazing what you've been able to do, but for the audience, would you please tell us how did you get to where you are today? What were some people that moment in your career?

Jessica McClain: Well, I'm going to take it back to the very beginning. I will also add that things don't always go as planned. So I knew from a young age I wanted to be an accountant. I was fascinated by numbers and saw the, how much money accountants could make. And I was like, wow, I want to be an accountant. They make a lot of money.

So I started my collegiate career. I took one accounting class and said, Oh, no, this is not the path for me. The class wasn't exciting. The work seemed boring. And so I changed my major to business management. I graduated from South university. It's a school North of Baltimore city with my degree in business management and went to work for the federal government.

While there, I met someone who was a CPA and she said, this work isn't for you. She said. You seem to be someone that be a fit for auditing. I hadn't thought about that. And she said, and you can still work in the federal space, but do auditing. She said, you have a level of professional skepticism. And I had no clue what that meant at the time.

And so I'm like, huh? She said, this, this isn't it. There's something else for you. So I actually, a few months into working for the federal government, I studied for the GMAT. I got into George Washington university where I, a year and a half later, got my degree in accounting. And I started my career at KPMG.

Wow. So was accounting fun at that time or it was the same boring? It was the auditing piece. The auditing is what drew me in. The professional skepticism, the level of curiosity and questioning that you have to have, digging into the work, that just fascinated me. And working with different types of clients, working with different people, the work didn't seem stagnant or boring to me.

I stayed in public accounting for a little over 11 years. But I always say I learned so much about my time in public accounting. There are many great relationships that I have built and have maintained since then. And so I'm not going to bash public accounting, we got some work to do. I'm very fortunate and glad I did start my career in public accounting and I had the opportunity to work at some amazing and phenomenal firms.

A few years ago, I decided to transition. I became a mom and said, okay, this, this grind isn't working for me anymore. Still wanted to do work that excited me, and so I transitioned to the non profit space. Being in the DC area, there are plenty to choose from and work at, and so went to a 501c6 for a little while as a controller, and then the Girl Scout opportunity showed up three years ago for me.

Oh, wow. That's amazing. It was wow. When I saw it and I read the job description, I said, I think I can do most of those things. I think I could do this. But for me, I grew up as a Girl Scout in this council. I have a young daughter who is on her way to becoming a Girl Scout. And I'm like, this is, this is where I need to be.

I applied, interviewed, and here I am three years later and enjoying every minute of it. That's

Wassia Kamon: amazing. That's awesome. And I wonder, the shift to not for profit, so I came from manufacturing and somehow in my head I thought not for profit would be easier. When you were at KPMG, were you already working with not for profit clients so you kind of knew how it was or was it a total shift from you when you transitioned?

Jessica McClain: It was a total shift. I worked in the federal government space. So initially in public accounting, I was auditing federal government entities and organizations. So when I left public accounting, I did a complete shift to the nonprofit space. It was tough. Yes, I know accounting, I know, understand that, but there are different nuances.

The work is a bit different, but I like to say now I get to bring two passions together that I have. And I love to say that I work at the intersection of accounting and social impact, because as you mentioned, I have a passion for the accounting profession, and I get to bring that to do work that has a positive impact on people's lives.

Wassia Kamon: That's amazing. And it really speak to how you had to step outside your comfort zone, something new. Cause usually I realize a lot of people, if they're wearing public accounting in one area. when they transition going that same area, but you went something completely outside. So please tell us more about that kind of bold

Jessica McClain: moves.

I will say being outside of your comfort zone is so important. It's a superpower because that's where you're pushed. That's where you're able to grow. When you step into an area of, let's say, the unknown, you are truly forced to adapt. You are forced to learn. You are forced to Challenge yourself in ways because you're in a very new territory, a territory you're not familiar with.

We chatted right before we started recording and I have a piece of wall art in my office. And it reads, great things don't come from comfort zones. I've had that for about 10 years and it is a constant reminder for me that staying in my comfort zone, although it may feel safe. That's not where real progress is made for me, whether it was taking on a new role in a new subset or part of the accounting profession, whether it's stepping into the CFO role that when I was new to that for the first time, I really found that my biggest achievements.

have been when I've truly embraced just not being comfortable. You got to be able to take risks. You have to be able to confront challenges head on and push through that uncomfortableness, push through that uncertainty. It really is a mindset that you have to have. And I think it's even more important now today with the pace of change, uncertainty in the business world in general, not even just a nonprofit.

And so if you really want to reach the full potential in your career, you got to get out of that comfort zone.

Wassia Kamon: That is so true. I love it because I just stepped into my first CFO role, so would gladly listen to some tips you have for like your first 90 days, your first year, like what helped you in making that transition?

Jessica McClain: I would say two things just initially stepping into the role into a new organization. I did a lot of listening. You don't learn by talking. And I think some people even started to question, like, does she actually talk? Does she have anything to say? And I do. And I will, when it makes sense and when I am able to bring insight to what the conversation, but it did a lot of listening with various people at different parts of the organization, not just the finance team, not just at the C suite level, but various levels throughout the organization and different departments within the organization.

Even those that didn't have a direct line of report to me. And we'll talk about this later, of course, is that continuous learning, that love of learning mindset. I did a via character strength assessment a little while ago, our new boss had us do it. And my number one thing is love of learning, which I'm glad because it's so important and so needed.

And so whether I'm reading newsletters, going to conferences, webinars, podcasts, I was soaking as much as I could to get to where I am now, but no, I still need to continue to do that. That's awesome. So

Wassia Kamon: listening a lot and still be open to learning. Yeah. The CFO role is there's a lot of moving pieces and I feel like the role is evolving regardless of your industry you're in, right?

Because it's not just accounting finance. Now you have to shift into strategy, shift into what's going on in the next. five years shifting to so many things. So if you could rewind the clock and talk to your 10 year, 15 year younger self, what would you say? What would you advise that younger Jessica to do or pay more attention to as she's going through her career?

Jessica McClain: Absolutely. If I could go back, and oftentimes we all wish we could, right? I would tell myself to invest in building my network from day one. Day one of my career. Early on, I didn't fully grasp how powerful a strong network could be. Had no clue. And not just creating professional connections and not just having connections to have connections.

It's opened doors for me. And some of these relationships that I've built have really shaped my future where I am. I put a lot of work in now and being intentional and making connections. And again, with that, I've had opportunities that I would have never imagined. I've been able to be a guest on podcasts such as these.

speak at conferences, people have shared job opportunities with me, and you know, I've received you know, awards as well, and but I've also been fortunate to have great mentors and sponsors who have played an instrumental role in my journey. I was once told that it is so crucial to tell your own story, because believe me, there is a story out there of you.

You want to make sure you control that narrative and that advice has stuck with me building my network has not only given me professional opportunities, but it's given me a chance to share my story, which is important and I want it to be shared in a way that reflects who I am. And so I really wish I knew the importance of that earlier in my career.

Ever since I've understood that, it's been a game changer for me. And the network is how we've got connected. Someone said, I got to get these two ladies together. These are two awesome women who are in the accounting space doing great things. I need to make sure they get connected. And that's the power of network.

Wassia Kamon: Yes, so true. Now I want to hear some specific example, you know, spice it up. Tell us a story about how somebody you probably met maybe five or 10 years ago may have opened a door for you today because sometimes we say network but it doesn't always click. What does it mean to really build your network?

It's not just sending a friend request or connection request. What does it mean to really build those relationships that can open doors for you?

Jessica McClain: Absolutely. Anyone in the accounting profession knows this name is Kimberly Ellison Taylor.

Wassia Kamon: Oh

Jessica McClain: gosh. My goodness.

Wassia Kamon: When

Jessica McClain: I grew up, I want to be like her. Oh my goodness.

You talk about someone that has been so instrumental in my path. I had known Kimberly for years and didn't really understand who she was. And I'm to this day, I'm like, how do I not know who this woman was? About eight years ago, I reached out to her and said, I really want to get more involved with the profession and volunteering and.

She shared some of those opportunities with me. She said, you have to apply to volunteer and give me your resume and all the things you need to do. And I started becoming involved at a national level with the ICPA. And over the next several years, she has shared her wisdom. She has shared opportunities.

You should go to this event. You should apply to this. I need you to think about that. Reach out to this person. As we say, just putting me on and just so willingly sharing her time, if I could call her and say, okay, I'd have, I need some advice about this situation or I need help with this, I'm applying for this job.

Can you help me prepare for my interview? I mean, she has been so helpful for me. I mean, it's about filled my cup and she has done that. And what it's allowed me to do is I've done my best to do that for others. I was mentoring a young woman a few years ago to her journey of being a CPA. And sometimes we just, we just need that encouragement.

We just need that motivation. And she took a couple of years and this was right after the COVID time. I was pregnant with my second child. And afterwards she said, I don't know how I can repay you. I said, I need you to repay me. I need you to do this for someone else because someone did that. What I've done for you, someone has done that for me.

That's what we talk about, relationships and connections with people. So it's not just the transactional getting to know someone. And like you said, a LinkedIn request, it is truly building and maintaining relationships.

Wassia Kamon: That's so inspiring and encouraging too. But then I wonder now that you're a CFO, your schedule is, okay.

Yes. Yes. How do you make time to keep building your brand? Cause I see you on LinkedIn. I see you on the awards. I see you speaking. How do you maintain that balance between you mentioned your mom, then you have your CFO role, then you have your brand, like, how do you balance all that?

Jessica McClain: And it's not easy and I work on it every day, I don't have the perfect answer, perfect solution.

I will say I am very, I'm pretty strategic with my time and how I spend it. I have young children. So I have a daughter when she's at gymnastics practice or she's at MMA practice. Maybe that's some time I can, you know, go through emails or, or get some posting done on LinkedIn. I'm just sitting there for two hours waiting for her to practice.

I really think through what is the best use of my time. And I'm still working on it on a day to day basis, even at work. It's, I know Jessica, let's delegate that to someone else. There's someone else that can do that. You've done that a hundred times. Let's give other people opportunities for growth and development.

And there's seasons to this as well. I have a very supportive spouse. He understands my drive. He understands my ambition. Always been there to support me when there's times I need to attend events or travel to speak. And so I'm very appreciative of him when giving me the space and the opportunity to do these things, but it's not easy.

And I always have it perfect.

Wassia Kamon: Oh, it takes a village. Um, to the role. I thought, oh, why do people need a, an executive assistant? Oh, why do you need all this? And I'm like, geez. Yes, I need all the help I can get. Now you mentioned something about having a supportive spouse, but also being able to delegate to your team, being able to have a strong team to support you as a CFO.

So what are some things that have helped you build your team to be at a level where you, you feel comfortable in some of the other strategic initiatives you have to support in some of the other work you have to do?

Jessica McClain: A big part of it is, is letting go and saying, here's the work that needs to be done. I don't have to sit you down with a manual and tell you specifically how to do it.

I got to let go and let you do it. And when staff do that, a lot of times they actually do an amazing job. I've seen something like you did that better than I probably would have done it. I should have given this to you a long time ago. But when you do that, they're empowered and then they're engaged. And engagement is very important.

We talk about the workplace, but it's letting go of, if I don't do it, it's not the perfect way or understanding. It's not the only way something could be done. When you're able to let go, if you're able to empower your staff, again, they're engaged. That gives you the space and the opportunity to do the higher level thinking, the higher level work.

It's something I have a new boss, new CEO, and she's been in place, you know, six, seven months and she's really pushing this on her leadership team of, I want us to elevate, I want us to think higher and be at a higher level of the work that we're doing. We have an amazing team of staff at Girl Scouts Nations Capital.

Let's empower them. Let's engage them. We know they can do phenomenal work. That's why we hired them. And let's do that. And when they, when our staff do that, it's like, wow. I'm just fascinated by the work that they can do. And it's like, you know what? This is why you're here. This is why we hired you. So let it go.

Wassia Kamon: Yes, let it go. Now, sometimes I realize you let go. It's a two way street, right? So you want to let go, but how is the other person willing to receive? Because you may be comfortable. Operating at a certain level outside of your comfort zone, but maybe some of your team members may not be as open to trying new things without specific guidance or things like that.

How do you walk them through? How do you get their buy in to do some of those things?

Jessica McClain: Absolutely. And that's the thing about being in leadership is you have to be flexible and adaptable and understand your staff. understand who's working for you and how they operate. You have some staff, you can give them and tell them this needs to be done by friday and by thursday, it's done and it's done almost perfectly.

Others do need some more help. Some need guidance and there's nothing wrong with that. It's up to you as a leader to understand that additional guidance, that additional coaching, that additional support is needed. So you can kind of pull that out of them. When you take the time to get to know the staff that work for you, when you take the time to get to know what drives them, what motivates them, what agitates them, what fuels them, and what drains them, then you're able to give the work that you know empowers them and fills them up and gives them a sense of fulfillment and purpose in the work that they're doing.

But I'm gonna put that on leadership. That's where it starts.

Wassia Kamon: Now, leadership is not really in our background as accountants, right? So we, when we go through our career, we start very technical, spreadsheet, dying numbers, all that. And then you have to shift, like you say, to leadership, right? Not just leadership in terms of how you will lead the corporation's financials, but leadership of your people.

What are some of the things that helped you develop those leadership skills? They call it soft. I find them actually hard skills. Because it's hard. What helped you in that journey?

Jessica McClain: You are, oh my gosh, you're absolutely right. If I've had to think through advice to give to others in the future is investing in those skills.

Some people call them human skills, people skills, you know, some say hard skills. Because they're not the easiest. You need to make those investments early in your career. And this seems to be a mindset in public accounting. We like to wait until we reach a managerial level and say, Oh, now I need to start working on my leadership skills and understanding leadership is not defined by a title.

It's not a title. You can have influence. You can have persuasion and creativity and critical thinking. That's at any position within an organization, especially now with technology. Oh my gosh. With the rapid advancements in technology, the tasks that used to be human driven or done by humans are now becoming automated.

But what won't be replaced is the human element. And so I've had to take a step back and say the human aspect, our ability to connect with people, our ability to inspire people, to think creatively, strategic thinking, those elements are not going away at this point. Who knows what the future lies with.

With that mindset, I've taken all kinds of classes about again, creativity. You would think as an accountant, that doesn't make sense, but I've listened to LinkedIn learning courses and podcasts and did reading truly to understand creativity, what it means to inspire people, values driven leadership.

That's what I've had to start working on. So not the technical stuff, again, very important in the work that we do, but at this level. You have to have a very different mindset when it comes to those skills because that's how you're going to stay adaptable and relevant at this point.

Wassia Kamon: I agree with AI. I'm always saying you mean human intelligence?

Yes. To make the best use of artificial intelligence. When you stepped into the role again of CFO, given your accounting background at KPMG, public accounting, heavy, heavy accounting, and then you're turning in, you were a controller and now you're a CFO. What would you say were the top two things that they didn't tell you about becoming CFO?

You didn't expect. What took you by surprise?

Jessica McClain: Wow. And you're right. I come from public accounting and specifically in the audit space, very technical understanding the standards and maybe the name off the standards. I mean, that's where I came from. And then coming to the CFO role, even the controller role was like, wow, this is a bit different.

And especially for me in the nonprofit space, one of the things that surprised me, what was new to me was really being a strategic partner. And I had maybe heard the language before, but understanding that it's more than just the numbers. Where I am now at Girl Scouts Nations Capital, I am involved in decisions that are truly shaping the overall direction of the Girl Scout Council.

I am an advisor to the CEO and our leadership team and our committee chairs and our board and I have to go beyond just reporting the numbers and providing financial analysis, but understand how those impact our mission and our goals. I have to take that financial strategy and align it with our long term vision and ensure that every financial decision that we make supports our ability to do the work that we're building girls of courage, confidence, and character.

Every decision that we make. So it's, it's a balance and it's been a tricky balance and being able to, to do that. The other piece, and we've talked about this a bit, that human element is the time you spend managing relationships. I'm working with board members, committee members, donors, volunteers, our internal staff.

It's beyond just delivering reports. I have to build trust. It's a big thing. I have to build trust with our various stakeholders. I have to be able to communicate sometimes complex financial information in a way that can resonate with those that may not have a financial background. So I've heard people use the term, I'm a translator.

We're translators. We translate between what's going on financially. And especially in the nonprofit space, the passion for the work that we have and navigating these relationships is a human element of the work that I wasn't aware of, but I know it's important in this role because that's what helps drive our success at our Girl Scout Council.

Wassia Kamon: That's amazing because I really like the idea of the storytelling. As a translator and how you have to break down those complex elements so they can understand, because not everybody understand restricted and restricted net asset releases like, huh, what? Do we have money to do this? So what are some of the things that helped you specifically with that storytelling and how do you adapt, right?

Because funders want to see one thing, program people want to see another one, like how do you navigate all that?

Jessica McClain: Part of it is understanding your audience and who you're speaking to, whether I'm speaking to a board member, our treasurer, the CEO, volunteers, I have to first understand the audience. I always love to share this story.

One of the things we did at Girl Scouts Nations Capital, our treasurer is a communications expert. Assistant treasurer, she is a CPA through and through, but our treasurer is a communications expert. And when I say she has helped me learn to story tell, because she'll say, Jessica, I don't know what that means.

I don't understand that. Okay, you're telling me this, but what does that mean? What am I supposed to do with that information? I've learned from her how to take the numbers and communicate and provide insight and tell a story. And so the last three years I've, I've learned so much from her, I'm looking forward to the next three years with her in this role, but that was a unique way of having that position of someone whose background is how something, how something is told, how something is shared.

And it's definitely about challenged me. Absolutely. But I know it's helped improve my storytelling abilities and my capabilities in that area.

Wassia Kamon: And that's tough love too, because you work with an executive coach and she will, she will, what's wrong with you kind of feedback, but which means you have to be open to receiving that kind of feedback, because if you shut down, then your skills are not improving.

So what are some of the things that help you stay open and you have all these accolades, you have all your CFO, you're top of your game. I know you'll do even greater thing, but what keeps you

Jessica McClain: grounded? Very humble, very humble person. Um, sometimes too humble. As I shared earlier, I did via character strengths.

My first one was love of learning. And my second one was humility. I don't walk in a room assuming I'm the smartest person in the room and actually don't want to be the smartest person in the room because I love a learning. I want to learn from others. I want to talk to the other smart people and realizing I don't have all the answers.

It's the same role that I take with my staff when we're in meetings. I don't always have to be the first one to give a response or the first one to give the answer. I want to hear what others think like, Oh, maybe not have thought of that. Oh, I would have been blindsided by that if you hadn't spoke up.

And so I really walk into a room. I'm not the smartest person. Don't have to be. I just want to be in a room with other smart people that have different experiences, different perspectives, different viewpoints. That's how we learn and grow together, but that humility is very important to me.

Wassia Kamon: Yes, because it takes a village, like we said, if you could get a cook, an executive coach, an assistant, like it takes a lot to be in that CFO and a lot at work, but also on your mental health, your physical health.

What keeps you going? Like, how are you refueling? How do you keep that energy to give your best at what

Jessica McClain: you do? The number one thing I do a lot of, I actually get pretty good of, is sleep. I'd be surprised, people be like, I do all these things. I, I protect my sleep. At nine o'clock, nine thirty, I'm out. I know I'm not my best when I don't have that.

That is one thing I protect. It's been harder to take vacations and things with young children, but I try my best to do that. And again, my husband is supportive. If you need to take a week in the way, take an overnight trip just to have that space in that room, I go to the nail salon. I take my hour and a half and get my manicure, my pedicure, and that's my quiet time.

That's my me time. You know, sometimes just taking walks when it's warmer outside is another day, I'm going to take 20 minutes, I'm going to take myself a walk, and I don't take a phone outside and take a walk. And so for me, it's harder to find, I can't take a two week vacation, it's a lot harder, but it's finding the space and the time throughout a day, throughout a week or so, to be able to do that.

Sometimes it's also just having fun. I have a Every other month or so, I have a dinner with my girlfriends and we go out and have drinks and dinner and have some fun time laughing together. My husband and I, we try to make sure we have our date nights. I try my best to protect the time. It's not always easy, but I make those intentional efforts.

Wassia Kamon: Yes, what I protect the most, I think, is my Sunday afternoon nap. I actually threaten everyone in the house. This is an emergency call 9 1 1 like do not. So I need to do more of that later, but whatever works for you, you should do. So what are some books you're reading right now? Like what are some things that you think?

As a finance and accounting community, as business leaders, we should be educating ourselves more. So

Jessica McClain: I haven't had much time to get into reading books. It's been a bit hard, but as far as what I stay abreast on, a lot of times I'm doing different webinars. Of course, I read wall street journal. I usually have CNBC on the TV going, of course, AI CPA, their various newsletters, CFO leadership council.

I spend time going to different lunch and learn type events as well with different organizations. various podcasts. Your Path to Nonprofit Leadership is one that I listened to as a nonprofit executive. It is all over the place. One of these days, I'll start, I need to get some quiet time in to start getting, reading my books again.

But it's been hard. But I, I find other ways to take in and I think that's what is, is fascinating now. There's no one way to learn and take in information. I know some people that do the YouTube videos, LinkedIn learning, newsletters, newspapers, podcasts. I mean, you name it, it's there. Again, that level learning I have, I'm trying to take as much as I can in, is important.

But I'm gonna get back to reading again. I got plenty of books that are on my shelf collecting dust. I gotta get to them.

Wassia Kamon: In my back too. And yes, stepping to CFO, I had started reading a book and I'm still on the same page. No judgment here. I understand what you just said. Like, Oh my God. Okay. So it feels good to know I'm not the only one.

Like, I feel like I, like you said, have to be more flexible and learn other ways through listening. Cause I always, a paper book, I have to hold it in my hand and. When you were saying letting go, I was like, Oh, maybe that's something I need to let go, listen to the book or listen to podcasts and do things like that.

So that's so, so, so helpful. So I wanted to hear from you. What are some of the things you think the younger generation of finance and accounting leaders should do to get ready and better prepared for roles like CFO, VP of finance and above?

Jessica McClain: Absolutely. And we talked about this a bit more and I'll dig into it a bit is with technology, the human element.

The human intelligence, as you called it, is going to be so important because it's not just the technology itself. You're going to have to deal with, and I was at a conference about six months ago, and they talked about the difference between change leadership and change management. And as a leader, you're on a change leadership side because some of these changes that are coming about, the human connection is going to be so important.

I mean, people are concerned about What technology means to their jobs and a lot of people there, they are tied to their jobs. They get a sense of identity from their jobs. And so how do you tell someone when you need to learn something new when they thought maybe they were done having to learn? How do you tell them their role and what they do is going to change and how that can impact them?

And so it's so important that you work on honing these skills because that's truly what's going to set you apart and prepare you for that next role and just the overall evolving workplace in general. So again, you got to expand that knowledge, refine those skills, those human skills as human intelligence to be adaptable because you got to keep the people in mind.

So yes, we're going to focus on implementing and putting in this new AI technology. You have to keep that human element and the human piece in the forefront. You have to add as a leader within an organization. It's not waiting till you get to that level. You start it now.

Wassia Kamon: Start now. Thank you so much, Jessica.

It's such a great joy to finally connect with you and have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for your time.

Jessica McClain: Oh, thank you so much.

Wassia Kamon: That's it for today's episode of The Diary of a CFO. I hope you enjoyed it. If you have any topic you would like me to cover in the future, please send it to ask at thediaryofacfo.

com. Again, send an email to ask at thediaryofacfo. com. If we connect on LinkedIn, you can just send me a DM. The reason I need it is because I want to make sure I bring you the insight you need to be a better leader and be better at life. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to leave a review, subscribe and share it, and I'll see you next in another episode of the Diary of the CFO.

Cheers.