In this episode of The Diary of a CFO Podcast, host Wassia Kamon sits down with Teri Kozub, a three-time CFO with more than 33 years of experience in nonprofit finance and current CFO at Community Legal Services of Mid Florida.
Teri shares how her non-linear career shaped her leadership style, why nonprofit finance is far more complex than many assume, and how CFOs can lead effectively through uncertainty, risk, and mission-driven pressure.
Expect to Learn
- Why the CFO role extends far beyond numbers and reporting
- How nonprofit CFOs navigate uncertainty and funding volatility
- What trust and communication look like when leading outside your expertise
Key Timestamps
00:00:00 Introduction and career journey
03:18:00 Why nonprofit finance is not easier
09:03:00 Trust, communication, and leadership
18:47:00 Community and executive isolation
20:45:00 Endowments and long-term legacy
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đź”— Connect with Guest Teri Kozub:
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00:00:00 --> 00:00:03 Meet Terry Kozub, a three -time CFO with 33 years
00:00:03 --> 00:00:06 of experience in the nonprofit sector. She currently
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 serves as chief financial officer at Community
00:00:08 --> 00:00:10 Legal Services of mid Florida, overseeing accounting,
00:00:11 --> 00:00:13 IT, risk management, and strategic planner with
00:00:13 --> 00:00:17 a strong financial foundation. Let's jump into
00:00:17 --> 00:00:20 the episode. Welcome back to the Diary of a CFO
00:00:20 --> 00:00:23 podcast. The podcast where finance leaders share
00:00:23 --> 00:00:25 the lessons, challenges, and wins that shape
00:00:25 --> 00:00:28 their careers, as well as their organizations.
00:00:28 --> 00:00:30 Today, I'm your host, Waseea Camon, and I'm delighted
00:00:30 --> 00:00:33 to have with me, Terri Coza. Welcome to the show,
00:00:33 --> 00:00:35 Terri. Thank you. Good morning. Glad to be here.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:39 Awesome. Me too, because you have such an extensive
00:00:39 --> 00:00:42 experience. I can't wait to dive in. So why don't
00:00:42 --> 00:00:44 you start with telling us about your journey
00:00:44 --> 00:00:47 and the story behind how you find yourself here
00:00:47 --> 00:00:49 today in your current role? It's been a good
00:00:49 --> 00:00:51 journey. Not always a straight line. I don't
00:00:51 --> 00:00:54 think it's ever a straight line. I actually realized
00:00:54 --> 00:00:57 this morning that my middle child has turned
00:00:57 --> 00:01:00 33. So I've been in this business for 33 years
00:01:00 --> 00:01:02 now in the nonprofit side, doing a little bit
00:01:02 --> 00:01:06 of accounting and finance before that. But absolutely
00:01:06 --> 00:01:09 has been a, it's been a journey of just adventure
00:01:09 --> 00:01:13 and wonder and awe. I never knew I wanted to
00:01:13 --> 00:01:15 work in the nonprofit world. I knew I wanted
00:01:15 --> 00:01:18 to make the world a better place. So I didn't
00:01:18 --> 00:01:20 realize that those actually very much go hand
00:01:20 --> 00:01:24 -in -hand. I spent many years in nonprofit arts.
00:01:24 --> 00:01:27 I was at Ford's Theater. I was at Washington
00:01:27 --> 00:01:30 Performing Arts Society. You know, two just huge
00:01:30 --> 00:01:33 organizations in Washington, DC. Maybe not in
00:01:33 --> 00:01:36 size, but in prestige and honor and all that.
00:01:36 --> 00:01:39 So had a lot of great people I worked with there.
00:01:39 --> 00:01:42 Decided it was cold. Moved to Florida. ended
00:01:42 --> 00:01:45 up working with the Orlando Philharmonic and
00:01:45 --> 00:01:49 part of the Plaza Live. And then for some reason,
00:01:49 --> 00:01:51 and I'm really not sure why, but for some reason
00:01:51 --> 00:01:54 I went over to the more social services sector
00:01:54 --> 00:01:57 for a little bit. And I liked it, but it wasn't
00:01:57 --> 00:02:00 quite the same. And then I actually had a recruiter
00:02:00 --> 00:02:02 call me for this position at Community Legal
00:02:02 --> 00:02:04 Services. And again, it went back to that, you
00:02:04 --> 00:02:07 know, changing the world to make the world a
00:02:07 --> 00:02:09 better place. And it was just, it was a whole
00:02:09 --> 00:02:12 new adventure that opened up to me. Many, many
00:02:12 --> 00:02:14 years ago, I thought briefly about being a lawyer
00:02:14 --> 00:02:19 and I never took that journey, but now it's kind
00:02:19 --> 00:02:21 of cool that I'm alongside of those people and
00:02:21 --> 00:02:25 I'm alongside of people. I might not have a direct
00:02:25 --> 00:02:28 impact on the community. I know what I'm doing
00:02:28 --> 00:02:31 has a direct impact on the community. And that's
00:02:31 --> 00:02:34 huge. That means so much to me. Oh, that is awesome.
00:02:35 --> 00:02:37 It is rewarding because I started in for profit
00:02:37 --> 00:02:39 before coming into not for profit. And I've been
00:02:39 --> 00:02:43 not for profit now for almost four years. And
00:02:43 --> 00:02:45 it does make a difference when you know that
00:02:45 --> 00:02:48 the work you do, even though you still, you know,
00:02:49 --> 00:02:51 somehow in the numbers and things like that does
00:02:51 --> 00:02:54 contribute to have sustainable impact in the
00:02:54 --> 00:02:57 community. So glad you find yourself in not for
00:02:57 --> 00:02:59 profit. Now, the thing is, a lot of people think
00:02:59 --> 00:03:03 not for profit is easy. or easier? What do you
00:03:03 --> 00:03:04 have to say about that? Because I don't want
00:03:04 --> 00:03:07 it to come from me, but curious to hear. You're
00:03:07 --> 00:03:11 33 years, what have you learned about the interesting
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 things, that surprising things people may have
00:03:14 --> 00:03:16 about being a CFO in a now for profit environment?
00:03:17 --> 00:03:20 Wow, that's a huge question. So let me start
00:03:20 --> 00:03:23 with the first of, it's easy and you're right,
00:03:23 --> 00:03:27 it's not. It's always a challenge. I think that's
00:03:27 --> 00:03:29 how you learn so much though. And that's how
00:03:29 --> 00:03:33 you grow is being a CFO isn't just, it's not
00:03:33 --> 00:03:36 just numbers. It's so much more than that. I
00:03:36 --> 00:03:39 have cleaned up rats from a basement as part
00:03:39 --> 00:03:43 of the CFO role. Look at your face. You know,
00:03:43 --> 00:03:46 I have, and I want to talk about some of this
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 more later, but I've also, I've developed audio
00:03:49 --> 00:03:52 tours. I've, you know, looked at ways to help
00:03:52 --> 00:03:55 seniors that were not quite, you know, in line
00:03:55 --> 00:03:57 with what you would think we would be doing.
00:03:57 --> 00:04:01 So. There's, I think, one of the best things
00:04:01 --> 00:04:03 about working, especially for the smaller nonprofits.
00:04:03 --> 00:04:06 And when I say smaller, I mean under 20 million,
00:04:06 --> 00:04:08 you get to do a little bit of everything. You
00:04:08 --> 00:04:12 know, you, you really get to, you get to work
00:04:12 --> 00:04:14 at, you get to play with numbers. You get to
00:04:14 --> 00:04:16 look at the endowment account. How do you, how
00:04:16 --> 00:04:18 do you start an endowment? How do you grow an
00:04:18 --> 00:04:20 endowment? What's the budget look like? So you
00:04:20 --> 00:04:22 get to do all of those things, but with a nonprofit,
00:04:22 --> 00:04:26 there's also so many other pieces that come in
00:04:26 --> 00:04:29 from you because if people don't know where a
00:04:29 --> 00:04:35 task fits, it fits under the CFO. So yes, that's
00:04:35 --> 00:04:38 got y 'all. It is a catch all, but that's, that's
00:04:38 --> 00:04:40 also a good thing. So I think that was the first
00:04:40 --> 00:04:42 part of your question. Then you asked a second
00:04:42 --> 00:04:45 question. Kind of tag on to it. What are some
00:04:45 --> 00:04:47 of the things about being a CFO that might surprise
00:04:47 --> 00:04:52 people? That I count on my fingers. I used to
00:04:52 --> 00:04:54 think it was only me in the last week. I saw
00:04:54 --> 00:04:56 someone's doing this and like, they're counting
00:04:56 --> 00:05:00 on their fingers. So that's definitely surprising.
00:05:00 --> 00:05:02 I think another thing is surprising, and I've
00:05:02 --> 00:05:04 already mentioned this, the whole idea is that
00:05:04 --> 00:05:07 numbers isn't what we do all day. Numbers provide
00:05:07 --> 00:05:11 us information, but as a CFO, we need to be at
00:05:11 --> 00:05:14 the table with the other leaders in the organization,
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 having influence, thinking strategically on how
00:05:17 --> 00:05:20 do I move my organization forward? So while the
00:05:20 --> 00:05:23 numbers are important, you know, we're looking
00:05:23 --> 00:05:25 at historical numbers often, we also need to
00:05:25 --> 00:05:28 look forward and think what do we need to do
00:05:28 --> 00:05:31 to prepare for the future? And then the last,
00:05:31 --> 00:05:33 kind of the third thing I guess I would say is
00:05:33 --> 00:05:35 we're actually kind of funny sometimes. They're
00:05:35 --> 00:05:38 like, oh, you're a boring accounting person or
00:05:38 --> 00:05:40 whatever. Not that accounting people are boring
00:05:40 --> 00:05:42 either, but you know, they always think we're
00:05:42 --> 00:05:46 very reserved and buttoned up. And we're not,
00:05:46 --> 00:05:48 I mean, you're a perfect example of that and
00:05:48 --> 00:05:52 we're just like everybody else. Yes. Yes. Thank
00:05:52 --> 00:05:55 you so much for sharing. I'm curious to hear,
00:05:55 --> 00:05:58 especially since you've been a CFO three times,
00:05:58 --> 00:06:01 I'm curious to understand how did you grow into
00:06:01 --> 00:06:04 the role of CFO? Like what was that first CFO
00:06:04 --> 00:06:07 experience like versus the second versus the
00:06:07 --> 00:06:09 third one? How did you prepare maybe differently
00:06:09 --> 00:06:11 or how did you lend the role maybe differently?
00:06:12 --> 00:06:18 The first By the time I became a CFO, I was beyond
00:06:18 --> 00:06:21 blessed, beyond fortunate. Someone took a chance
00:06:21 --> 00:06:24 on me. I had had Hunter reach out to me, and
00:06:24 --> 00:06:26 this was at Washington Performing Arts Society.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:29 I didn't really know what a CFO was. I knew they
00:06:29 --> 00:06:32 did a lot of different things. And I think I
00:06:32 --> 00:06:35 came in cheap, compared to the other person with
00:06:35 --> 00:06:37 all those years of experience. They hired me,
00:06:37 --> 00:06:40 and then it's like, now what do I do? Because
00:06:40 --> 00:06:43 it really was a... You know, oftentimes in the
00:06:43 --> 00:06:45 nonprofit world, especially I think you do learn
00:06:45 --> 00:06:47 on your own. You learn as you're doing the job
00:06:47 --> 00:06:50 and you just kind of figure out what needs to
00:06:50 --> 00:06:52 be done and you reach out to people and you get
00:06:52 --> 00:06:56 them to help. Since then, you know, the CFO,
00:06:56 --> 00:06:59 I would say each time it's gotten easier until
00:06:59 --> 00:07:02 I got into this position I'm currently in because
00:07:02 --> 00:07:04 it was a whole new role. It wasn't. nonprofit
00:07:04 --> 00:07:07 arts anymore, and it was a bigger question. And
00:07:07 --> 00:07:09 I remember the first day, our chief, one of the,
00:07:09 --> 00:07:11 like in the first week, our chief program officer
00:07:11 --> 00:07:14 came to me and she's like, she starts asking
00:07:14 --> 00:07:16 me this huge question. And I'm just thinking
00:07:16 --> 00:07:20 how that, nevermind what I know. I had no idea.
00:07:22 --> 00:07:24 And again, I think that's what keeps it interesting.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:27 That's what keeps you coming back is that I'm
00:07:27 --> 00:07:29 going to learn more. I'm going to do more. I'm
00:07:29 --> 00:07:31 going to, I'm going to learn something new. I
00:07:31 --> 00:07:34 had. I had no idea about the law or anything,
00:07:35 --> 00:07:38 how to serve people, how to serve clients. And
00:07:38 --> 00:07:40 believe me, I still don't know, I know the tip
00:07:40 --> 00:07:42 of the iceberg, not even that much, but it's
00:07:42 --> 00:07:46 just, it's always evolving. The role is always
00:07:46 --> 00:07:49 evolving. And I think especially now as you move
00:07:49 --> 00:07:52 more into IT and cybersecurity risk and, you
00:07:52 --> 00:07:54 know, it's like, I know all those, those, you
00:07:54 --> 00:07:56 know, normal things to do, but you just have
00:07:56 --> 00:08:00 to keep staying on top of things. There's a lot
00:08:00 --> 00:08:03 of bad people out in the world and that just
00:08:03 --> 00:08:05 infuriates me because it's like if they would
00:08:05 --> 00:08:07 just shift and do good things, what a better
00:08:07 --> 00:08:10 place. It will be so much better. Yeah. Yeah,
00:08:10 --> 00:08:11 but that's not going to happen. So it comes back
00:08:11 --> 00:08:14 to how can I make the world a better place? So
00:08:14 --> 00:08:17 you learn what cybersecurity risks are and you
00:08:17 --> 00:08:20 learn how to work through those. And, you know,
00:08:20 --> 00:08:22 it's not, it's one of those, a lot of it's not
00:08:22 --> 00:08:25 that hard. It's just being meticulous, paying
00:08:25 --> 00:08:28 attention. Yes, because in your current role,
00:08:28 --> 00:08:32 you oversee IT and risk management. And I'm pretty
00:08:32 --> 00:08:34 sure maybe in your first role, you were not necessarily
00:08:34 --> 00:08:37 overseeing IT and maybe were just finance and
00:08:37 --> 00:08:40 accounting. So the role is the plate is definitely
00:08:40 --> 00:08:43 getting larger. So what has been your go -to
00:08:43 --> 00:08:46 move to, you know, getting to that kind of situation
00:08:46 --> 00:08:49 and take over and being able to learn to be able
00:08:49 --> 00:08:53 to lead effectively other functions that maybe
00:08:53 --> 00:08:56 like you were not an expert in, but now you have
00:08:56 --> 00:08:59 to lead them. That's a huge question. We can
00:08:59 --> 00:09:02 talk about that for all day. To me, the biggest,
00:09:02 --> 00:09:05 there's a few things. You need to have smart
00:09:05 --> 00:09:07 people, and then you need to be able to trust
00:09:07 --> 00:09:09 that they're smart and trust that they're doing
00:09:09 --> 00:09:14 their job. And that open communication, my director
00:09:14 --> 00:09:17 of IT, she keeps me informed. I don't tell her
00:09:17 --> 00:09:19 how to do her job. I don't know how to do her
00:09:19 --> 00:09:22 job. You wouldn't know how to do it. She knows
00:09:22 --> 00:09:25 how to do her job, but she comes to me when there's
00:09:25 --> 00:09:27 a problem. We talk about things. We talk about
00:09:27 --> 00:09:30 how do we move forward if there's a problem because
00:09:30 --> 00:09:32 it comes down to making decisions and taking
00:09:32 --> 00:09:35 risks. What are you balancing? What are you going
00:09:35 --> 00:09:39 to, if you choose path A instead of path B, what
00:09:39 --> 00:09:42 does that mean? So it's really just trusting
00:09:42 --> 00:09:45 them and allowing them to do their job and also
00:09:45 --> 00:09:48 allowing for mistakes. I have made some really
00:09:48 --> 00:09:51 stupid mistakes in my career. Some of them lack
00:09:51 --> 00:09:55 of judgment or lack of experience and some just,
00:09:55 --> 00:09:59 I made a mistake that day, you know. So, but
00:09:59 --> 00:10:01 you have to allow yourself grace and I think
00:10:01 --> 00:10:03 other people grace and just mistakes are going
00:10:03 --> 00:10:05 to happen. So you just move forward with that.
00:10:06 --> 00:10:09 And then the one other thing I think that's really
00:10:09 --> 00:10:12 important is conversations and talking with people.
00:10:13 --> 00:10:16 Because if I hire a really good IT person, but
00:10:16 --> 00:10:19 they can't tell me what's going on, that doesn't
00:10:19 --> 00:10:22 do me any good. You need, they need to be able
00:10:22 --> 00:10:24 to talk English to me, just like I need to be
00:10:24 --> 00:10:26 able to take my financial statements and explain
00:10:26 --> 00:10:29 them to somebody who's not. financial. So it's
00:10:29 --> 00:10:32 just that at ability to communicate meaningfully.
00:10:33 --> 00:10:36 Yeah. That's, um, I think that's really, really
00:10:36 --> 00:10:38 important. Great wisdom nuggets right there.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:42 Thank you so much for sharing. I'm curious right
00:10:42 --> 00:10:45 now, um, what would you say is the biggest challenge
00:10:45 --> 00:10:48 keeping you up at night and how are you navigating
00:10:48 --> 00:10:50 through it? The biggest challenge I'm going to
00:10:50 --> 00:10:53 since January, February has been uncertainty.
00:10:54 --> 00:10:57 What's happening tomorrow. what's going to happen
00:10:57 --> 00:11:03 next week. We have a lot of government funding,
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05 as I'm sure a lot of nonprofits do, and it's
00:11:05 --> 00:11:08 just always trying to plan what's going to happen.
00:11:09 --> 00:11:12 So there's uncertainty. If you know what's going
00:11:12 --> 00:11:13 to happen and you know, oh, I'm going to get
00:11:13 --> 00:11:16 this much money every year, some of you might
00:11:16 --> 00:11:18 go up a little or down a little, that's easy
00:11:18 --> 00:11:21 to plan for. But this past year has been really
00:11:21 --> 00:11:24 tough because not only were we looking at current
00:11:24 --> 00:11:27 year funding, but also now we're looking at next
00:11:27 --> 00:11:29 year's funding and now there's a possible shutdown
00:11:29 --> 00:11:32 coming. So there's a whole lot of uncertainty.
00:11:32 --> 00:11:36 best way to prepare for that is, you know, accept
00:11:36 --> 00:11:38 what you can't control. We know we can't control
00:11:38 --> 00:11:40 everything. So if I can't control everything,
00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 what can I do to prepare for the future? And
00:11:43 --> 00:11:45 you prepare for the worst and you just expect
00:11:45 --> 00:11:50 the best. I was reminded of that this past week.
00:11:50 --> 00:11:53 I was at a conference for Legal Services Corporation.
00:11:53 --> 00:11:56 I met this brand new CFO. She's about 20 years
00:11:56 --> 00:11:59 younger than me. And she was like, your attitude
00:11:59 --> 00:12:02 the first day, it was just terrible. You were
00:12:02 --> 00:12:04 doom and gloom. And you know what? She was right.
00:12:05 --> 00:12:09 I let myself go down there and it's, and it's
00:12:09 --> 00:12:11 refreshing to hear somebody so much younger than
00:12:11 --> 00:12:14 you say, you know, be optimistic. You, you know,
00:12:14 --> 00:12:16 we're going to get through this. And that was,
00:12:16 --> 00:12:19 that was really cool. That was just neat to,
00:12:19 --> 00:12:22 to hear that from someone else, from someone
00:12:22 --> 00:12:25 who didn't know me that well, but Um, obviously
00:12:25 --> 00:12:28 I was not giving off a good vibe that day. But
00:12:28 --> 00:12:32 it's also a good reminder of the power of having
00:12:32 --> 00:12:34 a community and people around you. Cause I feel
00:12:34 --> 00:12:37 like being a CFO can be a little lonely, but
00:12:37 --> 00:12:41 sometimes you're the only finance person talking,
00:12:41 --> 00:12:44 um, to other non -finance people. I just feel
00:12:44 --> 00:12:46 like it's maybe isolating. I'm just curious to
00:12:46 --> 00:12:48 hear, you know, you've been a CFO three times.
00:12:49 --> 00:12:51 So curious to hear if you do feel like. being
00:12:51 --> 00:12:54 a CF on exec, a top executive period is kind
00:12:54 --> 00:12:57 of lonely. And how do you bridge the gap? How
00:12:57 --> 00:13:01 do you build a community around you? Um, I think
00:13:01 --> 00:13:05 it is, you know, I don't know if I've ever really
00:13:05 --> 00:13:07 used that word lonely, but I know I have felt
00:13:07 --> 00:13:11 that way, felt a little bit of isolation because
00:13:11 --> 00:13:15 you come off and so much of what you do, you
00:13:15 --> 00:13:19 can't talk about because it's people. So much
00:13:19 --> 00:13:20 of what you do, you can't talk about because
00:13:20 --> 00:13:23 there is some bad news and you're trying to process
00:13:23 --> 00:13:26 it and deal with it. And then a lot of people
00:13:26 --> 00:13:28 just don't understand what you're doing. So it
00:13:28 --> 00:13:30 goes back to, I think just what you said, you
00:13:30 --> 00:13:34 know, building a community, building teams you
00:13:34 --> 00:13:36 can trust and not just, we've worked on this
00:13:36 --> 00:13:39 so much at Community Legal Services, not just
00:13:39 --> 00:13:42 the team that you manage. but also that team
00:13:42 --> 00:13:45 across the chiefs, you know, all of our, all
00:13:45 --> 00:13:47 of the chiefs, the human resources officer, the
00:13:47 --> 00:13:50 program officer, the executive officer, the growth
00:13:50 --> 00:13:54 officer, we all need to be a team as well. And
00:13:54 --> 00:13:56 while they might not understand the everything
00:13:56 --> 00:13:59 behind the numbers, the chief executive officer
00:13:59 --> 00:14:01 certainly does, but you know, not everyone's
00:14:01 --> 00:14:03 going to understand. all of the things you're
00:14:03 --> 00:14:05 going through my head, but they can understand
00:14:05 --> 00:14:07 the frustrations I'm feeling. They can understand
00:14:07 --> 00:14:11 the impact of everything that's happening. So
00:14:11 --> 00:14:13 I think, you know, kind of having those work
00:14:13 --> 00:14:16 communities, and then I'm also a big outside
00:14:16 --> 00:14:19 of work community person. Communities are important,
00:14:19 --> 00:14:23 whether it's people with similar, you know, values
00:14:23 --> 00:14:26 and goals and fun activities to do outside of
00:14:26 --> 00:14:30 work, or if it's networking groups. But I hate
00:14:30 --> 00:14:32 neck working, so that's probably not the best
00:14:32 --> 00:14:35 example. But, you know, it's just, it's always
00:14:35 --> 00:14:37 good to like already go to these conferences.
00:14:38 --> 00:14:40 Again, I'm not a, I'm not a big conference person.
00:14:40 --> 00:14:44 I met three or four people who it's like, wow,
00:14:44 --> 00:14:47 now when I have a question, I can go to them
00:14:47 --> 00:14:50 and I can lean on them. And that's really, that's
00:14:50 --> 00:14:53 reassuring too. So I think just the more you
00:14:53 --> 00:14:56 can build up connections and build those strong
00:14:56 --> 00:15:00 relationships. And you don't always have to agree.
00:15:00 --> 00:15:04 It's really okay to disagree, but then you just
00:15:04 --> 00:15:07 kind of, you work together. And I think often
00:15:07 --> 00:15:12 we build a stronger idea when we come from different
00:15:12 --> 00:15:14 sides and different perspectives. And then let's
00:15:14 --> 00:15:17 build it up to make it good. That's very true.
00:15:17 --> 00:15:20 That's very powerful, too, is the fact that we
00:15:20 --> 00:15:23 don't all have to agree. And I read a book couple.
00:15:23 --> 00:15:26 Actually, a couple years ago, it was called Unstuck
00:15:26 --> 00:15:28 and Stoppable by Janine Brown. And she was talking
00:15:28 --> 00:15:31 about the idea of a personal board of directors.
00:15:31 --> 00:15:34 My first time hearing it. And she was like, you
00:15:34 --> 00:15:36 know, companies have board of directors. You
00:15:36 --> 00:15:38 should also have one and make sure that is diverse
00:15:38 --> 00:15:41 in terms of not just finance people. You need
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 maybe a lawyer, a CEO. And it went back to what
00:15:44 --> 00:15:47 you just said, having different perspectives.
00:15:48 --> 00:15:50 Right. You may not always agree, but it definitely
00:15:50 --> 00:15:53 make you a stronger as an executive period, but
00:15:53 --> 00:15:56 being able to have better decisions because people
00:15:56 --> 00:15:58 are coming from different angles and challenging
00:15:58 --> 00:16:01 you differently as well. So that has been very,
00:16:01 --> 00:16:05 I'd be very grateful for that because I expended
00:16:05 --> 00:16:07 my personal board of directors since, and I've
00:16:07 --> 00:16:10 been mentioning it everywhere I go because it
00:16:10 --> 00:16:14 does feel sometimes lonely. Yeah. I really liked
00:16:14 --> 00:16:18 that idea. One of the. I know you haven't asked
00:16:18 --> 00:16:20 this, and I guess I'm just going to volunteer
00:16:20 --> 00:16:24 it. One of the things that I really wish I had
00:16:24 --> 00:16:26 done, I never had a mentor. You know, when I
00:16:26 --> 00:16:29 started in this business years ago, I remember
00:16:29 --> 00:16:31 when I said, oh yeah, I'm in nonprofit arts,
00:16:31 --> 00:16:33 people looked at me and they're like, oh, I want
00:16:33 --> 00:16:36 my kids to go into a field that pays. Or, you
00:16:36 --> 00:16:38 know, that's not a respectable job or whatever.
00:16:38 --> 00:16:40 There was never anyone there. I never had a mentor.
00:16:41 --> 00:16:45 So I, I would love if I could have one redo in
00:16:45 --> 00:16:48 my, in my professional life, find a mentor. And
00:16:48 --> 00:16:51 I think that goes very much in line with, I like
00:16:51 --> 00:16:53 the board of directors. I do now that I'm a little
00:16:53 --> 00:16:55 bit older. I think I'm too old for a mentor,
00:16:56 --> 00:16:59 but a board of directors, that's, I. I want to
00:16:59 --> 00:17:02 follow up on that. That's great. Oh yeah, for
00:17:02 --> 00:17:04 sure. We'll definitely drop the link in the show
00:17:04 --> 00:17:07 notes too, but it's something that, especially
00:17:07 --> 00:17:09 as women in finance, because there is the role
00:17:09 --> 00:17:12 of the CFO being a law and then being a woman
00:17:12 --> 00:17:14 in executive leadership can also come with its
00:17:14 --> 00:17:18 own set of challenges. So definitely surrounding
00:17:18 --> 00:17:20 yourself with the right people has been very
00:17:20 --> 00:17:23 comforting for me at least. But thanks for sharing.
00:17:24 --> 00:17:27 I've always been into, you know, mentoring or
00:17:27 --> 00:17:30 whatever. So I'm like, oh, you never had a mentor.
00:17:31 --> 00:17:33 So right now you don't have a mentor. I'm curious.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:38 But are you a mentor to somebody else? I haven't
00:17:38 --> 00:17:42 done that. I should. I've definitely given people
00:17:42 --> 00:17:44 advice and kind of said, well, this is what I
00:17:44 --> 00:17:45 would do or this is how I would handle it. I
00:17:45 --> 00:17:49 recently had somebody who, again, is like this
00:17:49 --> 00:17:51 job number two out of college. And she was like,
00:17:51 --> 00:17:53 you always know so much, you know what to say.
00:17:53 --> 00:17:55 And I just was like, I've been doing this forever.
00:17:56 --> 00:18:00 It's like I'm older than your parents, but you
00:18:00 --> 00:18:02 know, it goes back to diversity. I think age
00:18:02 --> 00:18:08 diversity, it's just one form of diversity. And
00:18:08 --> 00:18:10 personally, I think the more we can embrace diversity,
00:18:11 --> 00:18:14 we just... come across with better ideas and
00:18:14 --> 00:18:19 better solutions. Yes, we do. I agree. I agree.
00:18:19 --> 00:18:22 I'm curious now about maybe the best project
00:18:22 --> 00:18:27 you worked on or, you know, maybe something because
00:18:27 --> 00:18:29 I think you started an endowment from scratch
00:18:29 --> 00:18:34 and the idea of endowment is Well, when I got
00:18:34 --> 00:18:36 it not for profit, I was like, wait, what? How
00:18:36 --> 00:18:38 does it work? So maybe you can share something
00:18:38 --> 00:18:41 around that because it's one of those things
00:18:41 --> 00:18:44 that don't exist in for profit. So the other
00:18:44 --> 00:18:46 question I want to hit on up first though on
00:18:46 --> 00:18:50 the favorite project, it had nothing. absolutely
00:18:50 --> 00:18:53 nothing to do with Five Yet's. And I think that's
00:18:53 --> 00:18:55 part of why it was my favorite. And then part
00:18:55 --> 00:18:56 of it is because I think it actually was super
00:18:56 --> 00:18:59 successful. When I worked at Ford's theater twice,
00:18:59 --> 00:19:02 actually, and the second time I worked there,
00:19:03 --> 00:19:05 I was director of finance administration, which
00:19:05 --> 00:19:07 is the same. I was like the deputy director or
00:19:07 --> 00:19:10 one of the deputy directors. So that's the same
00:19:10 --> 00:19:13 as being a CFO, even though the title is not
00:19:13 --> 00:19:16 quite the same. We were looking at ways to diversify
00:19:16 --> 00:19:18 revenue and diversify income. And somebody had
00:19:18 --> 00:19:21 said, hey, I heard this was many years ago. We'll
00:19:21 --> 00:19:24 leave it at that. So audio tours were still a
00:19:24 --> 00:19:25 very new thing. And someone was like, let's start
00:19:25 --> 00:19:29 an audio tour. Terry, why don't you do it? Because
00:19:29 --> 00:19:31 you're trying to make more money for us. I didn't
00:19:31 --> 00:19:35 know what an audio tour was. So we had to do,
00:19:35 --> 00:19:39 we did an audio tour. And I like museums. I'm
00:19:39 --> 00:19:41 not a museum person. I don't read all the signs.
00:19:42 --> 00:19:45 So I'm in charge of making an audio tour for
00:19:45 --> 00:19:47 a museum that's attached to Ford's theater. It
00:19:47 --> 00:19:50 was great. It was great. Cause you actually can
00:19:50 --> 00:19:52 hire companies and hire writers and all of that.
00:19:53 --> 00:19:55 So it was more of a managing the project. But
00:19:55 --> 00:19:58 you know, that's, I think that's my kind of thing.
00:19:58 --> 00:20:01 Had I been in a for -profit world than a bigger
00:20:01 --> 00:20:04 company, I would have never had that opportunity.
00:20:05 --> 00:20:08 So that's just really, that's really kind of
00:20:08 --> 00:20:10 cool. You know, all because you didn't narrate
00:20:10 --> 00:20:12 like when you said, oh, you're the one reading
00:20:12 --> 00:20:15 the thing though. Oh, no, no. I got to, we got
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 to hear like audio tapes of the people reading
00:20:18 --> 00:20:20 and all that. We could decide the voices and
00:20:20 --> 00:20:22 everything. And then about half way through and
00:20:22 --> 00:20:25 said, we need a kid's version of this too. So
00:20:25 --> 00:20:28 there's things like that that are always a lot
00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 of fun and you never know what the day is going
00:20:30 --> 00:20:35 to bring. Uh -huh. Nice, nice. And then the endowment.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:40 Can you give us the endowment 101? Because I'm
00:20:40 --> 00:20:42 interested in doing that. But you know, since
00:20:42 --> 00:20:44 you're here, I'm like, okay, why not teach me?
00:20:45 --> 00:20:48 So endowments are interesting. I've never been
00:20:48 --> 00:20:50 at a nonprofit without an endowment until Community
00:20:50 --> 00:20:52 Legal Services. And you know, we're about to
00:20:52 --> 00:20:56 celebrate 60 years. So it seems like it was time.
00:20:56 --> 00:20:58 We actually got a gift from Mackenzie Scott.
00:21:01 --> 00:21:03 gazillionaire we had a gift from her it's been
00:21:03 --> 00:21:07 a few years now and it wasn't huge it was a couple
00:21:07 --> 00:21:09 million dollars which you know and I know her
00:21:09 --> 00:21:13 gifts range from you know a million to 70 million
00:21:13 --> 00:21:16 I think was yesterday's headline so they range
00:21:16 --> 00:21:19 all over but her instructions with the gift were
00:21:19 --> 00:21:22 do something you've never been able to do So
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 for us, and for me, it's like, we need to build
00:21:25 --> 00:21:26 an endowment. And at first people are like, oh,
00:21:26 --> 00:21:28 let's do this, let's do that. And then it's like,
00:21:28 --> 00:21:30 no, we've never been able to do this. You know,
00:21:30 --> 00:21:33 there's never enough money that you can just
00:21:33 --> 00:21:35 set aside this other piece of money and say,
00:21:35 --> 00:21:37 I'm never going to touch that. And I just want
00:21:37 --> 00:21:40 it to grow. So that's where our endowment came
00:21:40 --> 00:21:43 from. It was a beautiful thing. It wasn't, I
00:21:43 --> 00:21:44 don't want to say it wasn't work on our part,
00:21:44 --> 00:21:47 because I think that she gives to companies that
00:21:47 --> 00:21:51 do, they've already done the work. And she's
00:21:51 --> 00:21:54 acknowledging it. So lots of work on our part,
00:21:54 --> 00:21:56 but nothing to really not to actually put the
00:21:56 --> 00:22:00 money in the bank. Okay. And for people who don't
00:22:00 --> 00:22:04 understand how, what an endowment is or like,
00:22:05 --> 00:22:08 what are the benefits of an endowment for an
00:22:08 --> 00:22:11 organization? Can you please share some one -on
00:22:11 --> 00:22:16 -one nuggets here? Yeah. So the endowment is
00:22:16 --> 00:22:20 really just an account. Simple terms, it's set
00:22:20 --> 00:22:22 aside. You don't use it for day -to -day operations.
00:22:22 --> 00:22:25 You don't use it for anything really. The goal
00:22:25 --> 00:22:27 is to actually be putting money into it. It's
00:22:27 --> 00:22:32 also invested very conservatively. And the goal
00:22:32 --> 00:22:33 is for that money to always be there for it to
00:22:33 --> 00:22:38 be in, I can't say that word, perpetuity. Have
00:22:38 --> 00:22:41 it around forever. One of the good... pieces
00:22:41 --> 00:22:44 of an endowment is actually use it as a, as a
00:22:44 --> 00:22:46 marketing campaign almost for your fundraising
00:22:46 --> 00:22:48 efforts, you know, to do it, to have a whole
00:22:48 --> 00:22:52 legacy program where this, this sounds terrible,
00:22:52 --> 00:22:56 but when people pass away, you know, to, to benefit
00:22:56 --> 00:22:59 financially from, from them as well, where, you
00:22:59 --> 00:23:01 know, maybe they give 10 , maybe they give
00:23:01 --> 00:23:04 50 , but many people don't have kids or family
00:23:04 --> 00:23:06 or whatever, and they need someone to give their
00:23:06 --> 00:23:11 money to. So. It's great for that, but that's
00:23:11 --> 00:23:13 one way that you can build it. And I can't believe
00:23:13 --> 00:23:15 I just went down that tangent, but you just want
00:23:15 --> 00:23:17 to build it. And you hear about these huge schools
00:23:17 --> 00:23:20 that have hundreds of millions in their endowments.
00:23:21 --> 00:23:24 Yeah, most of us don't live like that. We have,
00:23:24 --> 00:23:27 you know, one to 10 million in our endowment.
00:23:27 --> 00:23:29 And when it gets that big, then you can maybe
00:23:29 --> 00:23:32 fund a position from it if you have a $10 million
00:23:32 --> 00:23:34 endowment, you know, take some of the earnings
00:23:34 --> 00:23:37 and use it towards some sort of operation. But
00:23:37 --> 00:23:41 mostly you're just putting that money away, not
00:23:41 --> 00:23:43 even for a rainy day, but just putting that money
00:23:43 --> 00:23:46 away so that your organization will always have
00:23:46 --> 00:23:50 a legacy, will always exist. Wow. Thank you so
00:23:50 --> 00:23:53 much for sharing because it's one of those things
00:23:53 --> 00:23:55 that we don't always understand from, you know,
00:23:55 --> 00:23:57 reading the business news and things that we
00:23:57 --> 00:24:01 hear the name, the term, but we don't always
00:24:01 --> 00:24:03 know what it means. And especially when we go
00:24:03 --> 00:24:06 back to how we said earlier, the uncertainty
00:24:06 --> 00:24:09 going on right now, those organizations that
00:24:09 --> 00:24:13 have endowment do have an advantage, right? Oh,
00:24:13 --> 00:24:17 yes, very much so. Yes. So what would you say
00:24:17 --> 00:24:21 is one? piece of wisdom that you pass along to
00:24:21 --> 00:24:24 the next generation of finance leaders. To be
00:24:24 --> 00:24:26 a sponge, to really learn everything you can,
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 whether it's about your role or another role,
00:24:29 --> 00:24:33 and to not shy away from the opportunities, to
00:24:33 --> 00:24:37 not shy away from the audio tours or from going
00:24:37 --> 00:24:39 to, we do a lot of outreach events at community
00:24:39 --> 00:24:41 legal services, you know, where we're going out
00:24:41 --> 00:24:44 into the community. You meet the people you're
00:24:44 --> 00:24:47 serving. And so many times in finance, you get
00:24:47 --> 00:24:50 pulled back and you're behind this wall and nobody
00:24:50 --> 00:24:51 sees you and you don't know who you're serving.
00:24:52 --> 00:24:56 So to really become a part of the organization,
00:24:56 --> 00:24:58 then you know its values. You know what people
00:24:58 --> 00:25:01 are working on. You know what breaks their heart.
00:25:01 --> 00:25:03 And you know what drives them and keeps them
00:25:03 --> 00:25:06 up at night. And that just makes you so much
00:25:06 --> 00:25:12 better in your role. Wow. So good. Thank you.
00:25:12 --> 00:25:14 I know we're getting to the end, so I'm just
00:25:14 --> 00:25:16 going to ask you two more questions. So what's
00:25:16 --> 00:25:20 your favorite quote and why? So my favorite quote
00:25:20 --> 00:25:22 is not technically a quote, but I'm going to
00:25:22 --> 00:25:25 use it as a quote. Speak up for those who cannot
00:25:25 --> 00:25:27 speak for themselves, for the rights of all who
00:25:27 --> 00:25:30 are destitute. That's actually from the Bible.
00:25:31 --> 00:25:36 It's Proverbs 31, 8, and it's just... There's
00:25:36 --> 00:25:39 so much, I know I'm all over the map, but there's
00:25:39 --> 00:25:41 so much in the Bible, especially in like Proverbs,
00:25:42 --> 00:25:45 that is about justice for all, for everyone.
00:25:45 --> 00:25:48 And that it's our responsibility to look out
00:25:48 --> 00:25:52 for each other, to make sure everything, as much
00:25:52 --> 00:25:56 as we can to make sure life is fair. We're taking
00:25:56 --> 00:25:58 care of other people. You know, it's one thing
00:25:58 --> 00:26:03 to say, oh yeah, you know. Hope you're well,
00:26:03 --> 00:26:04 stay warm and all of that, but if you don't give
00:26:04 --> 00:26:07 your coat, then how are you helping them stay
00:26:07 --> 00:26:11 warm? So if you don't give them legal services,
00:26:11 --> 00:26:13 how are you helping them? You can't say, oh,
00:26:13 --> 00:26:16 I hope you get over your legal issues, but you
00:26:16 --> 00:26:19 have to speak up for them. These people, the
00:26:19 --> 00:26:22 people that we serve don't have voices in the
00:26:22 --> 00:26:24 courtrooms. So this has always been up there
00:26:24 --> 00:26:26 as one of my favorites. And since I've been at
00:26:26 --> 00:26:30 Community Legal Services, obviously that is so,
00:26:30 --> 00:26:34 important and it doesn't matter to me. You can
00:26:34 --> 00:26:37 believe or not believe or you can believe whatever
00:26:37 --> 00:26:40 you want, but you cannot question that statement
00:26:40 --> 00:26:43 to speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves
00:26:43 --> 00:26:45 for the rights of all who are destitute. Wow.
00:26:45 --> 00:26:48 So that must have been a full circle moment for
00:26:48 --> 00:26:51 you working where you are. So thank you so much
00:26:51 --> 00:26:54 for sharing. My last question will be, what's
00:26:54 --> 00:26:56 your favorite thing to do outside of work? I'm
00:26:56 --> 00:26:59 excited to know that one because you left DC.
00:26:59 --> 00:27:02 to come to Florida. So what are you doing on
00:27:02 --> 00:27:04 the weekends? Well, it's every now and then back
00:27:04 --> 00:27:06 in Virginia, but that's a whole other story.
00:27:07 --> 00:27:09 But I'm still working in Florida. I love to hike.
00:27:09 --> 00:27:12 So I like cooler weather. So I'm really looking
00:27:12 --> 00:27:13 forward to the next few months, but I like to
00:27:13 --> 00:27:16 hike. And, you know, if you hike, you get thirsty.
00:27:16 --> 00:27:18 So you have to drink beer. So that's all good,
00:27:18 --> 00:27:20 too. And other than that, and the reason I moved
00:27:20 --> 00:27:23 back up north is what everybody says, my friends
00:27:23 --> 00:27:26 and family. You know, those are those are certainly
00:27:26 --> 00:27:28 important to me, but have a super close family.
00:27:29 --> 00:27:31 Everybody's close. And that's why we're back
00:27:31 --> 00:27:34 up here. But so friends, family, hiking and beer.
00:27:34 --> 00:27:38 There you go. That's me. Good, good. Well, thank
00:27:38 --> 00:27:40 you. Thank you so much for being on the show.
00:27:40 --> 00:27:43 It was such a great conversation. Well, thank
00:27:43 --> 00:27:45 you. Thank you. You made it easy. Thank you.
00:27:47 --> 00:27:49 And that's it for today's episode of the Diary
00:27:49 --> 00:27:52 of a CFO. Thank you so much for tuning in. If
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