Executive presence is often cited as the reason leaders don’t get promoted, but rarely explained.
In this episode of The Diary of a CFO, Wassia Kamon sits down with executive coach Jill Avey to unpack what executive presence actually means, why high performers get stuck at the Director or VP level, and how promotions really happen at senior levels.
00:00:00 – Welcome back!
01:16:00 – What is executive presence? Jill’s model for understanding and building it
07:50:00 – The challenges women face in leadership roles and how to overcome them
10:35:00 – How to balance confidence with warmth and authenticity in leadership
13:25:00 – Preparing for high-stakes meetings: Strategies for executive success
15:36:00 – The power of listening and how it enhances your leadership presence
23:10:00 – Key obstacles keeping leaders stuck at the director level and how to break through
32:07:00 – How visibility, communication, and executive presence can advance your career
This conversation explores:
- What executive presence is and what it’s not
- Why hard work and strong performance reviews aren’t enough
- The role of visibility, trust, and strategic perspective
- How leaders can show confidence without losing authenticity
- Common leadership traps that affect both men and women
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00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 Jill Avey helps women leaders get promoted to
00:00:02 --> 00:00:05 the director and VP levels with the SisterSmart
00:00:05 --> 00:00:08 leadership programs. She does this by supporting
00:00:08 --> 00:00:10 her clients to develop their strengths, increase
00:00:10 --> 00:00:13 their influence, and improve team performance
00:00:13 --> 00:00:17 while navigating gender bias. Welcome back to
00:00:17 --> 00:00:19 the Diary of a CFO podcast. I'm your host, Wassia
00:00:19 --> 00:00:23 Kamon, and today's guest knows exactly what it
00:00:23 --> 00:00:25 takes to be seen, heard, and promoted, not just
00:00:25 --> 00:00:28 what you do, but for how you show up. Welcome
00:00:28 --> 00:00:31 to the show, Jill. Oh, thanks so much for having
00:00:31 --> 00:00:34 me. Of course, I will definitely love to spend
00:00:34 --> 00:00:37 our time talking a lot about executive presence.
00:00:37 --> 00:00:40 So starting with the basics, what is executive
00:00:40 --> 00:00:42 presence to you? Executive presence, we can sum
00:00:42 --> 00:00:45 that up. It's one of these very difficult topics.
00:00:46 --> 00:00:47 Like it's that thing that you know when you feel
00:00:47 --> 00:00:50 it, but it's hard to describe. And so that's
00:00:50 --> 00:00:53 kind of how we can sum it up is it's that special
00:00:53 --> 00:00:56 something about people that tells you that they're
00:00:56 --> 00:01:00 the leader. And it's really in how we hold ourselves.
00:01:00 --> 00:01:03 It's the energy that we bring off, but it's also
00:01:03 --> 00:01:05 a bunch of behaviors. And so you have to have
00:01:05 --> 00:01:09 both, though. And there's an author and researcher,
00:01:10 --> 00:01:12 Sylvia Anhewlett, who is out of Harvard, and
00:01:12 --> 00:01:15 she's done an incredible amount of research on
00:01:15 --> 00:01:17 executive presence. She has a real simple model
00:01:17 --> 00:01:21 that's communication plus gravitas plus appearance.
00:01:23 --> 00:01:26 is kind of an easier way to think about it. It
00:01:26 --> 00:01:29 gives us something to grab onto. It's not the
00:01:29 --> 00:01:31 model that I use. I use a more complicated model
00:01:31 --> 00:01:33 because I find that gravitas is still one of
00:01:33 --> 00:01:37 those ambiguous things. And it's hard to explain
00:01:37 --> 00:01:41 that one. And so I've researched this because
00:01:41 --> 00:01:44 I saw right away that executive presence was
00:01:44 --> 00:01:46 something that was kind of mysterious. It was
00:01:46 --> 00:01:48 something I didn't understand that well in my
00:01:48 --> 00:01:50 career. I could have done a lot better job at
00:01:50 --> 00:01:55 this when I was a VP. I just leaned into it as
00:01:55 --> 00:01:56 a coach because I knew that this is something
00:01:56 --> 00:01:58 that people really needed. So I've studied it
00:01:58 --> 00:02:00 for years. And so I feel like I've cracked the
00:02:00 --> 00:02:03 code, but it is hard to it's hard to explain.
00:02:03 --> 00:02:06 And even the researchers, even the experts don't
00:02:06 --> 00:02:08 do a good job at explaining it. I don't think
00:02:08 --> 00:02:11 so. That's where having a lot of conversations
00:02:11 --> 00:02:14 about it and talking about the different behaviors
00:02:14 --> 00:02:18 really makes a difference. OK, so now I'm curious
00:02:18 --> 00:02:20 to hear because you said gravity is not even
00:02:20 --> 00:02:24 English. So How would you define with the research
00:02:24 --> 00:02:28 that you did? What is executive presence? And
00:02:28 --> 00:02:30 do you think it's something that people are born
00:02:30 --> 00:02:32 with or is it something that they can learn?
00:02:32 --> 00:02:34 It's definitely something you can learn. I don't
00:02:34 --> 00:02:36 think I don't know if anybody's born with it,
00:02:36 --> 00:02:38 but there are some of those little kids who are
00:02:38 --> 00:02:42 like, you know, you think I have a nephew and
00:02:42 --> 00:02:44 I'm like, he's going to be in sales. And so,
00:02:45 --> 00:02:48 you know, that it can come naturally. Some people
00:02:48 --> 00:02:50 are naturally more charismatic, for example.
00:02:51 --> 00:02:59 But it's not charisma. It's not really your personality.
00:02:59 --> 00:03:02 So we can definitely learn it. So that's the
00:03:02 --> 00:03:08 good news. My personal models, I break it down
00:03:08 --> 00:03:11 into five different categories. So appearance
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 is one, because that's the critical first filter,
00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 as Hewlett calls it. People will make a judgment
00:03:18 --> 00:03:21 on your appearance as do you look like a leader
00:03:21 --> 00:03:25 and there's there's a look that leaders have
00:03:25 --> 00:03:28 and you know, I'm you know, I love that we're
00:03:28 --> 00:03:30 busting that right now because I'm all about
00:03:30 --> 00:03:33 like breaking rules and You know, for example
00:03:33 --> 00:03:36 curly hair has been one that like straight hair
00:03:36 --> 00:03:38 has been an executive thing for women but curly
00:03:38 --> 00:03:41 hair is now like totally breaking in and you
00:03:41 --> 00:03:44 know, I encourage my clients to wear it how you
00:03:44 --> 00:03:46 like it, wear what makes you feel best. And,
00:03:46 --> 00:03:48 you know, clothing, too. You know, we don't have
00:03:48 --> 00:03:51 to be in a black suit, but we can really put
00:03:51 --> 00:03:55 our own signature style into that. So that's
00:03:55 --> 00:03:56 that's kind of the easy part is the appearance.
00:03:56 --> 00:03:58 A lot of people get stuck there and a lot of
00:03:58 --> 00:04:02 people get stuck on like presentation skills
00:04:02 --> 00:04:05 and, you know, those kinds of things, too. But
00:04:05 --> 00:04:09 that's. I don't even count presentation skills
00:04:09 --> 00:04:11 in in executive presence, because that's more
00:04:11 --> 00:04:16 of a skill set. What I do count is, I say it's
00:04:16 --> 00:04:20 how I operate, it's how I connect with people,
00:04:20 --> 00:04:25 it's how I present myself, and it's how I'm connecting
00:04:25 --> 00:04:30 with others. So it's how, you know, do people
00:04:30 --> 00:04:34 resonate with me? Do I care? You know, do I have
00:04:34 --> 00:04:36 empathy? Do I put myself in other people's shoes?
00:04:36 --> 00:04:39 That's a big part of executive presence. And
00:04:39 --> 00:04:43 then, the how I operate is do I have practical
00:04:43 --> 00:04:45 wisdom? Do I know my job? You know, you have
00:04:45 --> 00:04:48 to have the technical skills to be a leader and
00:04:48 --> 00:04:49 people need to be able to trust that you're going
00:04:49 --> 00:04:52 to make the right calls, that you have a vision,
00:04:52 --> 00:04:54 that it's a vision that people want to follow.
00:04:55 --> 00:04:58 And that's tough right now with AI changing everything.
00:04:58 --> 00:05:01 It's very hard to have a vision of where we're
00:05:01 --> 00:05:04 going. And so, you know, but people need that
00:05:04 --> 00:05:08 and people need you to Bring everybody together.
00:05:08 --> 00:05:11 You know, are you I had a mentor once that said
00:05:11 --> 00:05:14 that Business is at 10 steps and it's up
00:05:14 --> 00:05:16 to you as a leader to bring all those steps going
00:05:16 --> 00:05:19 in the right direction So that's you know, somebody
00:05:19 --> 00:05:22 who can do that has that presence about them
00:05:22 --> 00:05:25 And then so you say your model had five you mentioned
00:05:25 --> 00:05:29 appearance was one I'm assuming practical wisdom
00:05:29 --> 00:05:34 is the other part. So it's how I connect Yeah
00:05:34 --> 00:05:39 How I look was the appearance one. Oh, okay.
00:05:39 --> 00:05:44 So how I look, how I connect, okay. How I operate.
00:05:45 --> 00:05:49 How I operate, okay. How I treat others. How
00:05:49 --> 00:05:54 I treat others, okay. And then how I present.
00:05:54 --> 00:05:58 How I present, huh. Okay. That's like how I present
00:05:58 --> 00:06:01 myself, not how I present a presentation, so.
00:06:02 --> 00:06:06 Yeah. Got it. OK. So when you mentioned how I
00:06:06 --> 00:06:10 operate, can you can you, you know, bring you
00:06:10 --> 00:06:13 give me more here on how I. Yeah. So for me,
00:06:13 --> 00:06:15 that's how do I operate in the world? How how
00:06:15 --> 00:06:19 am I doing my job? How am I? That's that practical
00:06:19 --> 00:06:21 wisdom piece. It's the vision piece. It's bringing
00:06:21 --> 00:06:24 everybody together towards that goal. And, you
00:06:24 --> 00:06:25 know, do people trust you in the thing you do?
00:06:26 --> 00:06:28 So you're in finance. Do I trust that you're
00:06:28 --> 00:06:31 really. you know, managing the finances in the
00:06:31 --> 00:06:33 way that's going to be best for everybody. Or
00:06:33 --> 00:06:36 do I think that you're somebody without good
00:06:36 --> 00:06:38 executive presence would be somebody who's looking
00:06:38 --> 00:06:42 out for their own bonus, for example. And that's
00:06:42 --> 00:06:44 not good executive presence. That's the me show,
00:06:44 --> 00:06:46 you know, and a good executive presence, a leader
00:06:46 --> 00:06:50 cares about the we, not the me. Wow. Thank you
00:06:50 --> 00:06:53 so much for sharing. So why do you think so many
00:06:53 --> 00:06:56 capable leaders, especially women, get told they
00:06:56 --> 00:07:00 need more presence? Because from what you describe,
00:07:00 --> 00:07:02 it's pretty simple, right? How I operate, how
00:07:02 --> 00:07:06 I connect, how I engage with others. But why
00:07:06 --> 00:07:10 is it that you can have all the technical skills
00:07:10 --> 00:07:11 that you need in your field? So I'm in finance,
00:07:11 --> 00:07:14 I have all the letters possible. And I was still
00:07:14 --> 00:07:17 told I didn't have executive presence. the only
00:07:17 --> 00:07:20 one. So yeah, I think there's a lot of reasons.
00:07:20 --> 00:07:22 And you know, there's reasons for men and women
00:07:22 --> 00:07:25 to not be showing the executive presence that
00:07:25 --> 00:07:28 they could be. And part of it is just that you've
00:07:28 --> 00:07:31 never worked on it, because there's very few
00:07:31 --> 00:07:34 places to work on it. There's very few resources
00:07:34 --> 00:07:37 on how to actually develop the skills. Like you
00:07:37 --> 00:07:39 can read some books and learn about it, but that
00:07:39 --> 00:07:41 doesn't actually tell you how to develop the
00:07:41 --> 00:07:44 skills. And so That would be one thing. There's
00:07:44 --> 00:07:48 also another factor that I think is huge for
00:07:48 --> 00:07:51 all sorts of people, but I work with women specifically,
00:07:51 --> 00:07:54 so I know that this is a factor for women, is
00:07:54 --> 00:07:57 that if you aren't fitting into the traditional
00:07:57 --> 00:08:02 male leadership mold. So, you know, for example,
00:08:02 --> 00:08:05 women don't, you know, they lead in a different
00:08:05 --> 00:08:09 way usually. They lead with a different set of
00:08:09 --> 00:08:12 skills. to the forefront. Sometimes, sometimes
00:08:12 --> 00:08:14 not. You know, women can lead with very masculine
00:08:14 --> 00:08:17 leadership skills and that's fine too. Generally,
00:08:17 --> 00:08:19 we're not fitting the mold. And that's why we
00:08:19 --> 00:08:22 get told, you don't look like a leader because
00:08:22 --> 00:08:25 they're not used to seeing that kind of leadership.
00:08:25 --> 00:08:28 And so this doesn't, I feel really strongly about
00:08:28 --> 00:08:30 building our executive presence in an authentic
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 way of figuring out what's right for us. And
00:08:32 --> 00:08:35 then really being able to understand that and
00:08:35 --> 00:08:38 describe it to others because you can help people
00:08:38 --> 00:08:42 along. in understanding you as a leader and having
00:08:42 --> 00:08:44 them see you as a leader when you can talk about
00:08:44 --> 00:08:48 those things. And so let's say you're a guy who
00:08:48 --> 00:08:51 is like, nice guys have as much problem as women
00:08:51 --> 00:08:54 do in the workplace. So like, let's say you're
00:08:54 --> 00:08:58 a nice guy and they're calling you saying that,
00:08:58 --> 00:09:00 you know, you're not a not leadership material,
00:09:00 --> 00:09:04 you know, and so you can put together. There's
00:09:04 --> 00:09:06 15 different facets that we work with in executive
00:09:06 --> 00:09:08 presence. You can put together your own style
00:09:08 --> 00:09:11 and show how this, I connect with people very
00:09:11 --> 00:09:15 deeply. I understand people. And so that makes
00:09:15 --> 00:09:17 them want to come along with me. That makes them
00:09:17 --> 00:09:19 want to follow my vision because they know I
00:09:19 --> 00:09:23 understand their world. A guy can say that just
00:09:23 --> 00:09:27 as well as a gal. So these are ways that we can
00:09:27 --> 00:09:31 explain ourselves to be shown with the executive
00:09:31 --> 00:09:34 presence that we do have. Wow, that's quite powerful
00:09:34 --> 00:09:37 because yeah, I personally started in corporate
00:09:37 --> 00:09:39 America and there was nobody looking like me
00:09:39 --> 00:09:42 At the top of the organization like that representation
00:09:42 --> 00:09:45 was not there especially in finance period So
00:09:45 --> 00:09:47 I'm curious to hear especially when you were
00:09:47 --> 00:09:51 talking about Masculine trait of leadership and
00:09:51 --> 00:09:54 how nice, you know nice guys also struggle For
00:09:54 --> 00:09:57 women, for example, how can we show confidence
00:09:57 --> 00:09:59 without having to worry that we're seen as too
00:09:59 --> 00:10:02 strong or aggressive? Like I feel like it's a
00:10:02 --> 00:10:05 double edged sword almost in most cases. Yes,
00:10:05 --> 00:10:07 that's one of those double binds that women face.
00:10:07 --> 00:10:09 We face a lot of double binds, but that's definitely
00:10:09 --> 00:10:13 one of them is that it's easy for us to tip over
00:10:13 --> 00:10:18 from assertiveness to aggressiveness. And there's
00:10:19 --> 00:10:22 My biggest tip the I'm not gonna say it's easy,
00:10:22 --> 00:10:25 but my biggest tip is to always add warmth in
00:10:25 --> 00:10:29 so If you come to the conversation, there is,
00:10:29 --> 00:10:31 you know, we're gonna pack our times when we
00:10:31 --> 00:10:33 need to be assertive. And there are times when
00:10:33 --> 00:10:34 we need to be assertive. And there are times
00:10:34 --> 00:10:38 when we're gonna, you know, be risk, we're gonna
00:10:38 --> 00:10:41 risk being called the B word, you know, and we're
00:10:41 --> 00:10:43 gonna, you know, and that's okay. People can
00:10:43 --> 00:10:46 think that we're not nice sometimes. And, you
00:10:46 --> 00:10:48 know, women are expected to be pleasing, helpful
00:10:48 --> 00:10:52 and nice. And we can go against that. But when
00:10:52 --> 00:10:56 we bring warmth and like a kindness into it,
00:10:56 --> 00:10:58 like we're doing this for the good of everybody.
00:10:58 --> 00:11:01 I'm laying down the line here because we all
00:11:01 --> 00:11:06 need this. Not because I'm mad or I, you know,
00:11:07 --> 00:11:11 was trod on or whatever, you know. It's coming
00:11:11 --> 00:11:14 to it with that we approach and which is, you
00:11:14 --> 00:11:18 know, what that does is women have different
00:11:18 --> 00:11:22 gender expectations. our societies are the way
00:11:22 --> 00:11:24 they are, and men and women have different social
00:11:24 --> 00:11:27 expectations. And one of the expectations that
00:11:27 --> 00:11:30 women have to deal with is that we are going
00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 to look out for the whole. And it's much more,
00:11:33 --> 00:11:35 it's okay for men to look out for themselves,
00:11:35 --> 00:11:41 but we will get judged. That's the bias that
00:11:41 --> 00:11:43 we'll face, and we'll be judged by men and women.
00:11:44 --> 00:11:48 And so, yeah. Because it's just going to rub
00:11:48 --> 00:11:51 people wrong. And so when we bring that warmth
00:11:51 --> 00:11:58 in and thinking about the whole, and I'm making
00:11:58 --> 00:12:00 a stand for this because I'm looking out for
00:12:00 --> 00:12:03 the company, for all the teams, for the budgets,
00:12:03 --> 00:12:06 or whatever it is, that bigger picture, then
00:12:06 --> 00:12:10 all of a sudden that can be so much more curable
00:12:10 --> 00:12:14 for people. when we strike against those gender
00:12:14 --> 00:12:18 norms, then the ears can close and our message
00:12:18 --> 00:12:21 isn't being heard because they're too caught
00:12:21 --> 00:12:26 up in how they feel about it. Wow. So let's say
00:12:26 --> 00:12:29 I walk into a high -stake meetings tomorrow.
00:12:30 --> 00:12:33 The habit, what is a micro habit or how can I
00:12:33 --> 00:12:36 apply this warmth to change how I'm perceived?
00:12:37 --> 00:12:39 Like I still want people to see me as an executive.
00:12:39 --> 00:12:42 I don't want to be seen as too aggressive, but
00:12:42 --> 00:12:45 I have a tough message to deliver. So how do
00:12:45 --> 00:12:48 you prepare for those kinds of meetings? I think
00:12:48 --> 00:12:51 the best thing is how you prepare yourself. And
00:12:51 --> 00:12:54 so I'm going to pull from another part of what
00:12:54 --> 00:12:57 I do in coaching, which is my communication training.
00:12:57 --> 00:13:01 And we talk about priming for trust. And so that's
00:13:01 --> 00:13:04 something where that's about preparing yourself
00:13:04 --> 00:13:07 and, you know, really being prepared with your
00:13:07 --> 00:13:10 message and why. You know, what is the purpose
00:13:10 --> 00:13:12 of this? What is the bigger picture? What is
00:13:12 --> 00:13:15 the mission you're serving with this tough message?
00:13:15 --> 00:13:18 Or do you have to get tough with the people there?
00:13:18 --> 00:13:20 Sometimes there's these characters that you really
00:13:20 --> 00:13:22 have to get tough with, especially at the executive
00:13:22 --> 00:13:25 levels, like it can be rough and tumble. And
00:13:25 --> 00:13:28 and so does that character need you to be tough
00:13:28 --> 00:13:31 with them so they can hear you? You know, so
00:13:31 --> 00:13:34 if you come in knowing kind of what you're serving
00:13:34 --> 00:13:38 and why you're doing what you're doing and coming
00:13:38 --> 00:13:41 in With you know kind of peace in your heart
00:13:41 --> 00:13:43 about that because if you come in with anger
00:13:43 --> 00:13:46 About it and you've had it or you've you know,
00:13:46 --> 00:13:49 you're not taking any more or you know, something
00:13:49 --> 00:13:52 like that Totally different message you're gonna
00:13:52 --> 00:13:55 deliver and so it's about really taking care
00:13:55 --> 00:13:58 of ourselves first our own emotional balance
00:13:58 --> 00:14:00 and making sure that we're grounded when we come
00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 into that conversation For me what always worked
00:14:03 --> 00:14:06 really well was I'm having compassion for the
00:14:06 --> 00:14:08 other people in the room Because they're just
00:14:08 --> 00:14:11 trying to get their jobs done too. And if I would
00:14:11 --> 00:14:12 think about where they're coming from, if there
00:14:12 --> 00:14:15 are people that you know, then you could think
00:14:15 --> 00:14:17 about even something that you love about them.
00:14:17 --> 00:14:19 I mean, you can find something to love about
00:14:19 --> 00:14:23 everybody, even the most grisly characters. Like
00:14:23 --> 00:14:25 I could, that was always my challenge was how
00:14:25 --> 00:14:27 can I find something that I love about them?
00:14:28 --> 00:14:31 And so if I can remember that before I say what
00:14:31 --> 00:14:34 I'm going to say, it comes off so much better,
00:14:34 --> 00:14:37 a lot less aggressive. Okay. And then I like
00:14:37 --> 00:14:40 how you said preparing for yourself, almost doing
00:14:40 --> 00:14:42 your homework on the people that you also going
00:14:42 --> 00:14:47 to be talking to, right? Understanding why, what
00:14:47 --> 00:14:49 will make their ears closed? Like you said earlier,
00:14:50 --> 00:14:52 you've dealt with in your practice, you deal
00:14:52 --> 00:14:54 with a lot of women coming in. What are some
00:14:54 --> 00:14:57 of the things who usually say, don't do this
00:14:57 --> 00:15:00 or do more of this so that the ears stay open?
00:15:00 --> 00:15:05 So that's your message actually lend. One of
00:15:05 --> 00:15:08 the things that I think is really important with
00:15:08 --> 00:15:11 the opening the ears part is that people feel
00:15:11 --> 00:15:16 heard and so I Mean even with your you know in
00:15:16 --> 00:15:20 your own family, right? I'll argue against my
00:15:20 --> 00:15:23 husband so hard until I feel heard and I know
00:15:23 --> 00:15:26 he's doing the same thing and you know I I've
00:15:26 --> 00:15:28 been a coach for a long time and I've been in
00:15:28 --> 00:15:30 personal development for a really long time and
00:15:30 --> 00:15:33 We still do it. We still catch ourselves doing
00:15:33 --> 00:15:37 it Yeah, it's so hard to listen, but that's why
00:15:37 --> 00:15:41 the prep is so important because when you prep
00:15:41 --> 00:15:43 yourself and you're ready for the questions that
00:15:43 --> 00:15:46 you're going to ask or at least have some ideas,
00:15:46 --> 00:15:49 you can change in the moment if you've already
00:15:49 --> 00:15:52 prepared yourself. But the more people feel listened
00:15:52 --> 00:15:56 to, the more you're asking them, you know, what's
00:15:56 --> 00:16:00 your viewpoint on that? You know, ears open wide
00:16:00 --> 00:16:03 up once they've feel heard, they feel you understand
00:16:03 --> 00:16:06 where they're coming from, it's much more likely
00:16:06 --> 00:16:10 that you're going to be listened to in a calm,
00:16:10 --> 00:16:16 receptive manner if you've been listening first.
00:16:16 --> 00:16:19 And sometimes it's hard to be the first one to
00:16:19 --> 00:16:21 go. Sometimes you want to be the one talking.
00:16:21 --> 00:16:23 But you have to think about what do I want out
00:16:23 --> 00:16:27 of this conversation? What is my goal? And sometimes
00:16:27 --> 00:16:29 it's, you know, for you to, to do the work of
00:16:29 --> 00:16:32 doing the listening first. And, you know, often
00:16:32 --> 00:16:34 you're going to get listened to a lot more when
00:16:34 --> 00:16:36 you've done that first. And that's, that's a
00:16:36 --> 00:16:39 better conversation for everybody. True. And
00:16:39 --> 00:16:40 that's how you're able to show that you're a
00:16:40 --> 00:16:43 partner in whatever problem you're trying to
00:16:43 --> 00:16:45 solve too. So thanks for sharing that, which
00:16:45 --> 00:16:49 is hard for. Us introverts, so I'm an extra extrovert.
00:16:49 --> 00:16:51 I should say it's hard for extrovert to listen
00:16:51 --> 00:16:55 Like it's hard for us. So I'm an extrovert too
00:16:55 --> 00:16:59 So any extra tip for the extrovert listening
00:16:59 --> 00:17:02 but also For the introverts, right? Because sometimes
00:17:02 --> 00:17:06 we feel like uh having a strong executive presence
00:17:06 --> 00:17:10 Is that charisma is presenting? Well, and if
00:17:10 --> 00:17:12 you're an introvert, can you have some executive
00:17:12 --> 00:17:15 presence? Introvert definitely listen my poor
00:17:15 --> 00:17:22 husband. He listens, but I don't so Yeah, and
00:17:22 --> 00:17:25 I mean I my husband's an introvert too thankfully
00:17:25 --> 00:17:27 because my first husband was an extrovert as
00:17:27 --> 00:17:30 well and boy that was competition, you know,
00:17:31 --> 00:17:35 and so, you know really I think Both of us need
00:17:35 --> 00:17:40 to listen but a lot of times the extrovert They're
00:17:40 --> 00:17:41 struggling with the listening, but the introvert
00:17:41 --> 00:17:44 is also struggling a lot of times with saying
00:17:44 --> 00:17:47 what they feel. And so one of the things that
00:17:47 --> 00:17:49 they can do is when the extrovert is actually
00:17:49 --> 00:17:51 trying to listen and they come in prepared to
00:17:51 --> 00:17:55 do that, open up a little bit, talk a little
00:17:55 --> 00:17:57 bit more, give them a little bit more information
00:17:57 --> 00:18:01 because they want it. And they need you to help
00:18:01 --> 00:18:06 them continue to listen. you know, if you continue
00:18:06 --> 00:18:08 the conversation along, that can be really helpful.
00:18:09 --> 00:18:13 Wow. And then as an extrovert, so I have a post
00:18:13 --> 00:18:16 -it on my desktop here that literally has listen.
00:18:16 --> 00:18:19 I wrote listen on the post -it note and put it
00:18:19 --> 00:18:24 on my on my desktop just so I can remember. But
00:18:24 --> 00:18:26 it's hard to do when you are in person. Right?
00:18:26 --> 00:18:29 So I learned that trick being remote and having
00:18:29 --> 00:18:32 my post -it note right here saying, listen, but
00:18:32 --> 00:18:34 when you are in the moment, like what are some
00:18:34 --> 00:18:40 things that could help? I think it's important
00:18:40 --> 00:18:45 to have a cue for yourself no matter where you
00:18:45 --> 00:18:48 are. So if you're in person in a meeting, some
00:18:48 --> 00:18:50 leaders do a thing where they prep themselves
00:18:50 --> 00:18:54 as they walk through the door. and whatever practice
00:18:54 --> 00:18:59 they need to have, grounding, breathing, usually
00:18:59 --> 00:19:02 calming yourself before a meeting. That helps
00:19:02 --> 00:19:06 us be in the right part of our brain and that's
00:19:06 --> 00:19:08 where our best behavior and our best thinking
00:19:08 --> 00:19:13 comes from. So having that kind of, this is what
00:19:13 --> 00:19:15 I do every time I walk through a doorway, I take
00:19:15 --> 00:19:19 a breath and I kind of feel my feet on the ground.
00:19:19 --> 00:19:23 That kind of thing can really help. And I think,
00:19:23 --> 00:19:27 as I mentioned, good meeting preparation of what
00:19:27 --> 00:19:28 are the questions? What are the things I want
00:19:28 --> 00:19:31 to learn from this person? Because if you have
00:19:31 --> 00:19:32 that all figured out, it's going to be a lot
00:19:32 --> 00:19:34 easier to listen. Maybe you have some questions
00:19:34 --> 00:19:37 written down already. You know, that's going
00:19:37 --> 00:19:40 to prime you to want to ask the questions and
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 then listen. And so you'll be totally ready for
00:19:43 --> 00:19:45 it. Sometimes we don't get to prepare for every
00:19:45 --> 00:19:47 meeting, though. You know, lots of meetings,
00:19:47 --> 00:19:50 we're sliding in from another meeting and What
00:19:50 --> 00:19:54 are we talking about today? And so for me, I
00:19:54 --> 00:19:57 you know, I always have a notepad with me I like
00:19:57 --> 00:20:00 to handwrite notes Rather than type on my computer.
00:20:00 --> 00:20:02 So if you've got a computer you can do the post
00:20:02 --> 00:20:05 -it note or some kind of like label on your computer
00:20:05 --> 00:20:07 if you need to, you know, if you're bringing
00:20:07 --> 00:20:10 your laptop into meetings. But for me, I'm a
00:20:10 --> 00:20:12 hand writer. So I write at the top of my page
00:20:12 --> 00:20:15 to listen or it used to be keep your mouth shut.
00:20:16 --> 00:20:21 I do that too. I do have a shut up posted note.
00:20:22 --> 00:20:28 KYMS. Whatever works. Whatever works. I'm curious
00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 to hear with all the years you spent in coaching.
00:20:30 --> 00:20:34 First, what got you into coaching and especially
00:20:34 --> 00:20:37 diving in like you've done with executive presence?
00:20:40 --> 00:20:44 I spent 25 years in marketing and I led a lot
00:20:44 --> 00:20:46 of cross -functional complex, cross -functional
00:20:46 --> 00:20:49 teams with all the players. And that is really
00:20:49 --> 00:20:53 hard work and it kind of wore me out. And so
00:20:53 --> 00:20:56 I decided I wanted to have a second act in my
00:20:56 --> 00:20:58 career and that I wanted to do something that
00:20:58 --> 00:21:00 was going to be more of service. And I personally
00:21:00 --> 00:21:04 would like to work till I'm 80. And so I picked
00:21:04 --> 00:21:07 coaching as a way that I could kind of taper
00:21:07 --> 00:21:10 down, but not have to leave. leave work altogether
00:21:10 --> 00:21:14 because I love being in the world. You know,
00:21:14 --> 00:21:16 I spent my career traveling around the world.
00:21:16 --> 00:21:20 And so now the world comes to me through my clients
00:21:20 --> 00:21:22 and and I loved leadership. So this is a way
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 for me to bring my background into something
00:21:25 --> 00:21:29 new and just helping people. And for me, it's
00:21:29 --> 00:21:32 really motivating. It became it became obvious
00:21:32 --> 00:21:34 right away that I should work with women. And
00:21:34 --> 00:21:37 it's really motivating for me to help women rise
00:21:37 --> 00:21:40 up because I think there's just a lot of overlooked
00:21:40 --> 00:21:43 talent in the workforce that doesn't have the
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 leadership training. I work specifically with
00:21:46 --> 00:21:48 women at the director and VP levels and help
00:21:48 --> 00:21:51 them move up to the next level. So whether that's
00:21:51 --> 00:21:56 the VP or C -suite level. And so I think that
00:21:56 --> 00:21:59 there's not a lot of support in that middle of
00:21:59 --> 00:22:03 the pipeline, is what we call it, to help people
00:22:03 --> 00:22:05 get from middle management to upper management.
00:22:05 --> 00:22:07 It's usually not a place where companies are
00:22:07 --> 00:22:10 spending a lot. they may do some workshops, but
00:22:10 --> 00:22:13 you're not getting that personal development
00:22:13 --> 00:22:15 that, you know, you get all that when you're
00:22:15 --> 00:22:18 a senior management, but you don't get it to
00:22:18 --> 00:22:20 bring out the potential to show that you could
00:22:20 --> 00:22:22 be really good in senior management. And so I
00:22:22 --> 00:22:25 feel like that's a that's the problem that I
00:22:25 --> 00:22:27 wanted to solve with my business. And that's
00:22:27 --> 00:22:30 a big problem because I feel like I was stuck
00:22:30 --> 00:22:34 at that director level for so long. You're doing
00:22:34 --> 00:22:36 all the work because you middle management is
00:22:36 --> 00:22:42 like. You're dealing with employees because the
00:22:42 --> 00:22:45 first step, so right, you start an individual
00:22:45 --> 00:22:48 contributor, you move to management and sometimes
00:22:48 --> 00:22:50 now you're managing your peers, doing performance
00:22:50 --> 00:22:52 review, you haven't woke up from this nightmare.
00:22:52 --> 00:22:55 And then now you're thrown into something else,
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 but there is very little, like you said, beyond
00:22:58 --> 00:23:00 the workshop that you do once a year or twice
00:23:00 --> 00:23:04 a year to really help you break. from that director
00:23:04 --> 00:23:08 VP to C -suite and more executive roles. So what
00:23:08 --> 00:23:13 have you seen as being the main obstacle or problems
00:23:13 --> 00:23:18 that get people stuck at that level? I would
00:23:18 --> 00:23:20 think we can. I mean, there's a skill set, you
00:23:20 --> 00:23:22 know, there's the community. To me, it's strategic
00:23:22 --> 00:23:25 perspective, it's communication and executive
00:23:25 --> 00:23:28 presence. But And it's also self -awareness.
00:23:29 --> 00:23:32 So the first step is really understanding yourself
00:23:32 --> 00:23:34 and what it is that you're bringing that's special
00:23:34 --> 00:23:37 about you and being able to talk about that.
00:23:37 --> 00:23:40 Understanding your leadership style and then
00:23:40 --> 00:23:42 developing that executive presence based off
00:23:42 --> 00:23:44 of what's special about you. And then when you
00:23:44 --> 00:23:49 have that package together, now you can bring
00:23:49 --> 00:23:52 that into the world. And so it all comes down
00:23:52 --> 00:23:55 to visibility in my mind because If nobody knows
00:23:55 --> 00:23:57 what you're doing, so many people get stuck in
00:23:57 --> 00:24:00 the doing part and they're working harder and
00:24:00 --> 00:24:01 harder hoping that somebody's going to notice
00:24:01 --> 00:24:05 and move them up. And once in a while that works,
00:24:05 --> 00:24:08 I'd say 10 % of the time that works. But 90 %
00:24:08 --> 00:24:11 of the time, it's the visible people that move
00:24:11 --> 00:24:16 up. And it's not a reward for hard work. They're
00:24:16 --> 00:24:19 moving you up because they see that you can add
00:24:19 --> 00:24:21 value at the senior level. They see how you're
00:24:21 --> 00:24:23 thinking. They see how you're solving problems.
00:24:24 --> 00:24:26 They see the impact you're making in the company,
00:24:27 --> 00:24:30 most importantly, and they want more of that.
00:24:31 --> 00:24:33 And they see that you could do even more from
00:24:33 --> 00:24:35 a higher level. And until you can show people
00:24:35 --> 00:24:38 that and do that translation for people, you're
00:24:38 --> 00:24:41 not going to get the attention. That's very true.
00:24:42 --> 00:24:44 That's some hard, hard, tough love right there.
00:24:44 --> 00:24:47 So for somebody listening that feel that they're
00:24:47 --> 00:24:51 in that stuck level, if I can say, what could
00:24:51 --> 00:24:53 be one or two things that can start doing differently
00:24:53 --> 00:24:56 to start having that visibility? Cause 90 % of
00:24:56 --> 00:24:58 people not being seen for their hard work is,
00:24:58 --> 00:25:03 is hard. It's a hard statistic. Yeah. Yeah. It's,
00:25:03 --> 00:25:05 and that's, there's no data behind that by the
00:25:05 --> 00:25:09 way. That's my field. That's how I felt too.
00:25:10 --> 00:25:13 I felt like the most visible people would move
00:25:13 --> 00:25:16 up. Some of them I just felt like were jerks,
00:25:17 --> 00:25:19 but they were the one that were visible. They're
00:25:19 --> 00:25:22 the one that were bragging or showing the world
00:25:22 --> 00:25:25 and networking and in all those dreams. So after
00:25:25 --> 00:25:28 hours and all these things, but they were visible.
00:25:30 --> 00:25:33 They were visible. So how do we get more visible?
00:25:34 --> 00:25:37 The things that you could do. One of them is...
00:25:37 --> 00:25:40 Check your busyness because the busyness trap
00:25:40 --> 00:25:43 is something that we work with in our program
00:25:43 --> 00:25:47 and You know, are you really doing every you
00:25:47 --> 00:25:49 know? Is everything that you're doing really
00:25:49 --> 00:25:51 that important because I would love for you to
00:25:51 --> 00:25:54 trim a couple hours a week off Is it a meeting
00:25:54 --> 00:25:56 you don't have to go to is it something you could
00:25:56 --> 00:25:59 delegate? Those are the easiest ways to do Things
00:25:59 --> 00:26:02 but also, you know check out your workload like
00:26:02 --> 00:26:03 there may be things that you just don't even
00:26:03 --> 00:26:06 have to do that you're still prioritizing. And
00:26:06 --> 00:26:08 so can you trim off a couple of hours a week
00:26:08 --> 00:26:12 to go out and get yourself visible? And so let's
00:26:12 --> 00:26:13 say you have found two hours a week. What do
00:26:13 --> 00:26:16 you do with that time? Now I want you to start
00:26:16 --> 00:26:19 tracking what you're doing and measuring the
00:26:19 --> 00:26:22 impact because so often we finished up a project
00:26:22 --> 00:26:24 and we just run to the next thing and we're not
00:26:24 --> 00:26:27 even stopping to see for ourselves. What what
00:26:27 --> 00:26:29 did we do? You know, and that will really help
00:26:29 --> 00:26:31 you on the business front because you'll start
00:26:31 --> 00:26:34 to be able to see. out of all the activities
00:26:34 --> 00:26:35 that I'm doing, what are the things that are
00:26:35 --> 00:26:38 really making a difference? And so once you start
00:26:38 --> 00:26:40 measuring all of that, then you can start talking
00:26:40 --> 00:26:43 about it. You can mention in a meeting, hey,
00:26:43 --> 00:26:45 this is I'm really proud of our team. You can
00:26:45 --> 00:26:48 do the brag and thank email, you know, like really
00:26:48 --> 00:26:50 proud of the team. They worked really hard. Here
00:26:50 --> 00:26:52 was our results. And here's some contributions
00:26:52 --> 00:26:55 of the team members that I really want to highlight.
00:26:55 --> 00:26:57 And, you know, those kinds of things going out
00:26:57 --> 00:27:01 once in a while make a huge impact. Maybe there's
00:27:02 --> 00:27:05 I love the book Smart Brevity. I mean, they talk
00:27:05 --> 00:27:08 about having a little, you know, weak recap for
00:27:08 --> 00:27:10 your manager, for the people that care about
00:27:10 --> 00:27:15 what you do, you know, let them know. And then
00:27:15 --> 00:27:17 you can start to get more personal and build
00:27:17 --> 00:27:20 relationships. So that's maybe spend an hour
00:27:20 --> 00:27:22 on the measuring and an hour on actually talking
00:27:22 --> 00:27:25 to people. And so I always have people think
00:27:25 --> 00:27:30 about, OK, who are the or what are the departments
00:27:30 --> 00:27:34 that my job impacts. So what are all the people
00:27:34 --> 00:27:37 that are tangential to my work that are above
00:27:37 --> 00:27:40 me? Why do they care about what I'm doing? And
00:27:40 --> 00:27:43 meet with them. Let them know about how you're
00:27:43 --> 00:27:45 doing and then have a conversation about how
00:27:45 --> 00:27:48 can we do this better? How can I serve your needs
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51 better? Start to understand their world more
00:27:51 --> 00:27:54 and understand how they're compensated and what
00:27:54 --> 00:27:57 How do they get bonuses? They care a lot about
00:27:57 --> 00:28:00 those things and the company cares about it too,
00:28:00 --> 00:28:01 otherwise they wouldn't be putting money there.
00:28:02 --> 00:28:06 So you can start to align your work with what
00:28:06 --> 00:28:08 everybody else is caring about more. And those
00:28:08 --> 00:28:10 conversations give you incredible availability
00:28:10 --> 00:28:14 and they give you a lot of support from senior
00:28:14 --> 00:28:16 management that could turn into a sponsorship.
00:28:17 --> 00:28:19 It could turn into somebody speaking up for you
00:28:19 --> 00:28:21 when it's time for a promotion to come around.
00:28:22 --> 00:28:23 You know, a lot of those conversations happen
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25 when we don't even know they were happening.
00:28:26 --> 00:28:28 And so you've got to have those relationships
00:28:28 --> 00:28:33 up front because the conversation happens. The
00:28:33 --> 00:28:35 announcements made that somebody is getting promoted
00:28:35 --> 00:28:38 and you had no idea any of that was going on.
00:28:38 --> 00:28:41 And you've got to you've got to have those people
00:28:41 --> 00:28:43 that are going to speak for you. That's true.
00:28:43 --> 00:28:46 And it remind me like I used to think that, you
00:28:46 --> 00:28:49 know, thinking about your career was only happening
00:28:49 --> 00:28:53 once you had performance review. And I wish somebody
00:28:53 --> 00:28:58 told me what you just said. It should be a year
00:28:58 --> 00:29:01 round conversation. Yes. It's year round. And
00:29:01 --> 00:29:03 before you know, you're like, how did that get
00:29:03 --> 00:29:05 promoted? I thought I would negotiate on my performance
00:29:05 --> 00:29:09 with you. Give me a three or four. And it already
00:29:09 --> 00:29:14 happened. Yeah. Yeah. And so you want to be laying
00:29:14 --> 00:29:18 all those seeds all year long and. creating those
00:29:18 --> 00:29:20 relationships. They take a long time to create
00:29:20 --> 00:29:23 a relationship. And so, you know, especially
00:29:23 --> 00:29:24 with senior leaders, you don't get a lot of access
00:29:24 --> 00:29:27 to them. You may have 15 minutes, four times
00:29:27 --> 00:29:29 a year. Maybe that's it. So you got to have a
00:29:29 --> 00:29:32 good story and you got to be fast with it. And
00:29:32 --> 00:29:34 you got to have a couple of good questions for
00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 them. And and then you can circle back and let
00:29:37 --> 00:29:40 them know how it went. And that can, you know,
00:29:40 --> 00:29:42 be the next conversation and the next one. So
00:29:42 --> 00:29:46 it's important to think about your career yourself.
00:29:47 --> 00:29:49 I think that's another mistake that a lot of
00:29:49 --> 00:29:53 people make is that if you wait till review time,
00:29:54 --> 00:29:57 your manager's in charge of your career and your
00:29:57 --> 00:29:59 company's in charge of your career, not you.
00:30:00 --> 00:30:03 And so you should be the one driving it. You
00:30:03 --> 00:30:05 should be figuring out what you need to work
00:30:05 --> 00:30:08 on because you know where you want to go and
00:30:08 --> 00:30:11 what it takes to get there. And it's your career
00:30:11 --> 00:30:17 path, not what can I get? big mindset shift for
00:30:17 --> 00:30:20 a lot of people because there's this feeling,
00:30:20 --> 00:30:23 I think, this kind of an employee mentality that
00:30:23 --> 00:30:26 we get instilled in us of the company's supposed
00:30:26 --> 00:30:30 to provide all that to me. And, you know, I mean,
00:30:30 --> 00:30:33 back in the day, companies did provide leadership
00:30:33 --> 00:30:36 training, but there's very few management tracks
00:30:36 --> 00:30:39 anymore. And, you know, rotations and things
00:30:39 --> 00:30:42 like that that used to happen like leadership's
00:30:42 --> 00:30:45 really in our hands now. Those budgets keep getting
00:30:45 --> 00:30:49 cut more and more. I don't know of any company
00:30:49 --> 00:30:57 that's expanding their business people. It's
00:30:57 --> 00:30:59 a long -term investment that's hard to see the
00:30:59 --> 00:31:04 return on. I get it, but that means that we need
00:31:04 --> 00:31:08 to do that work. Ultimately, no one cares about
00:31:08 --> 00:31:10 your career as much as you do. Your manager only
00:31:10 --> 00:31:12 cares a couple of times a year. They're thinking
00:31:12 --> 00:31:16 about you all the time. Very true. Oh, I love
00:31:16 --> 00:31:22 that. But how how did you get to that? Get to
00:31:22 --> 00:31:24 that, if I can say practical wisdom, like I'm
00:31:24 --> 00:31:26 curious, like if you could go back to your younger
00:31:26 --> 00:31:29 self before you build this level of confidence,
00:31:29 --> 00:31:32 what would you tell young Jill when she was,
00:31:32 --> 00:31:35 you know, in her? Maybe first five years of marketing.
00:31:35 --> 00:31:37 How do you build that confidence and that that
00:31:37 --> 00:31:41 mindset shift of I have to be like the CEO of
00:31:41 --> 00:31:43 my career can't just be an employee waiting for
00:31:43 --> 00:31:49 others to help me That's a hard question because
00:31:49 --> 00:31:52 when I was that young the resources that we have
00:31:52 --> 00:31:56 now we're not available so if I think you know,
00:31:57 --> 00:31:59 I would love to rephrase that in, what would
00:31:59 --> 00:32:01 I tell somebody who is starting their career
00:32:01 --> 00:32:05 now? Because there is so much help out there.
00:32:05 --> 00:32:09 I did all this by trial and error. There wasn't
00:32:09 --> 00:32:11 even business books when I started my career.
00:32:11 --> 00:32:14 Now we have so many books, so many things to
00:32:14 --> 00:32:18 listen to, podcasts, YouTube videos. There's
00:32:18 --> 00:32:23 so much resource for us. I always thought it
00:32:23 --> 00:32:25 was all about mentors, but mentors can only give
00:32:25 --> 00:32:28 you their viewpoint. But when you work with a
00:32:28 --> 00:32:32 coach, then that person like all I do all day
00:32:32 --> 00:32:35 every day is think about how to move women from
00:32:35 --> 00:32:38 middle management to upper management. That's
00:32:38 --> 00:32:42 all I do. And that's all I've done for nearly
00:32:42 --> 00:32:45 nine years. And so that's a I've worked with
00:32:45 --> 00:32:50 over 200 women for over a year. I go deep into
00:32:50 --> 00:32:53 these careers. I know the blow by blow for sometimes
00:32:53 --> 00:32:58 many years. And no mentor can give you that.
00:32:58 --> 00:33:01 True. No mentor can do that. They can give you
00:33:01 --> 00:33:04 the essential information of the politics in
00:33:04 --> 00:33:07 your organization that I can't give you. But
00:33:07 --> 00:33:10 there's like a coach for everything now. And
00:33:10 --> 00:33:12 so whatever thing that you need. You know, I
00:33:12 --> 00:33:15 had one client who was making a move into customer
00:33:15 --> 00:33:19 service and so she hired somebody that it was
00:33:19 --> 00:33:21 a customer service coach like a skills -based
00:33:21 --> 00:33:25 coach and so that there's there's so much learning
00:33:25 --> 00:33:28 that's out there with really specialized skills
00:33:28 --> 00:33:32 that you can find exactly what you need now versus
00:33:32 --> 00:33:34 you know joining you know in my case joining
00:33:34 --> 00:33:37 the American Marketing Association and hoping
00:33:37 --> 00:33:38 that you were going to learn what you needed
00:33:38 --> 00:33:43 to learn and of going to an event or two a year.
00:33:43 --> 00:33:46 That's just not how a smart person is gonna get
00:33:46 --> 00:33:49 there today. And you have so many more resources
00:33:49 --> 00:33:54 and finding that guide that is that expert. Just
00:33:54 --> 00:33:57 shortens it by years You can you could shorten
00:33:57 --> 00:34:00 your career path by ten years by hiring a right
00:34:00 --> 00:34:04 coach. It does it did for me. So I Started working
00:34:04 --> 00:34:08 with an executive coach when I was VP of finance
00:34:08 --> 00:34:10 and at the time my company would not pay for
00:34:10 --> 00:34:13 it So I was like, I'm gonna make the investment
00:34:13 --> 00:34:16 Lord fast forward within two years. I became
00:34:16 --> 00:34:20 a CFO By working with that coach and now the
00:34:20 --> 00:34:22 company pays for it, but you know, the first
00:34:22 --> 00:34:25 time I feel like we are often not always willing
00:34:25 --> 00:34:28 to make the investment in ourselves. And I think
00:34:28 --> 00:34:30 it goes back to the employee mentality that you
00:34:30 --> 00:34:33 said, we want the company to do it for us sometimes.
00:34:34 --> 00:34:35 And sometimes you just have to take the first
00:34:35 --> 00:34:37 step. But I do believe that executive coaching
00:34:37 --> 00:34:41 was transformative for me. And I can only imagine
00:34:41 --> 00:34:44 for your own clients how transformative it is.
00:34:44 --> 00:34:46 So I'm curious to hear what's the best way to
00:34:46 --> 00:34:49 start working with you. You know the best way
00:34:49 --> 00:34:52 to reach me is on LinkedIn because I'm on LinkedIn
00:34:52 --> 00:34:56 all day every day and so just send me a DM and
00:34:56 --> 00:35:00 you know reach out or start following my posts
00:35:00 --> 00:35:03 I post every day and talk about the stuff that
00:35:03 --> 00:35:06 I work with and so that's an easy way to get
00:35:06 --> 00:35:09 in touch with me. Well, thank you so much for
00:35:09 --> 00:35:12 being on the show. Such a joy. You've confirmed
00:35:12 --> 00:35:14 so many things for me that work for me that I
00:35:14 --> 00:35:17 hope other people listening and watching eventually
00:35:17 --> 00:35:20 on YouTube will also learn. So thank you so much.
00:35:20 --> 00:35:23 Oh, you're so welcome. Thanks for having me.
00:35:23 --> 00:35:25 And that's it for today's episode of the Diary
00:35:25 --> 00:35:28 of a CFO. Thank you so much for tuning in. If
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