Mistakes founders make during fundraising (from a cfo who has done 50+ M&A and Exit deals)

WEBVTT

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Welcome back to the Diary of a CFO podcast. I'm

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your host with Wassia Kamon. Each week we explore

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how top finance leaders help build high performing

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teams, partner with CEOs and boards and lead

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through growth and transformation without burning

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out in the process. Today's guest is Julianne Averill

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a healthcare AI CFO and board director with more

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than 20 years of experience. She serves on public

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and not -for -profit boards, chairs audit committees,

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and works with founders and executives on how

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to use AI thoughtfully in their businesses. So

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glad to have you on the show. Welcome, Jillian.

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I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having

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me. Of course. Of course. I was always curious,

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you know, when I got to learn more about you,

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to understand how did you end up in the world

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of live science and biotech, especially as a

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CFO? Yeah, well that's a great question. It was

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one of those things where it was, I'd say slowly

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and then suddenly. So I started out in finance

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with an interest in numbers and then grew up,

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my parents were in the medical field. And so

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I'd always been that person who'd been exposed

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to the numbers, exposed to the health side of

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everything. And then about actually 10 years

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ago now, I had the opportunity to work for a

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healthcare information technology startup, CalIndex.

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And it was able to be, I was employee number

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13. So I was doing, it was awesome. I was doing

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everything from HR to finance to basically all

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the operations. And we scaled from this little

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tiny startup of 13 people to we became the largest

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healthcare information technology company in

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the entire US. So that was my really first biotech

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health tech company. And then kind of went from

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there and have been in life sciences ever since.

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Wow. And so at which point did you actually became

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a CFO? Cause I know now you're a fractional CFO.

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So I'm curious to hear your journey to first

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become CFO and then the one to become fractional

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CFO. Yeah, I know that's a great question. So

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how I became CFO was I started out initially

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in public accounting. So prior to the health

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IT company, I had to start in forensic accounting,

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interestingly enough. So really I was helping

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companies figure out like when things went wrong,

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why did it go wrong? And then I did the public

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accounting journey. So really helping companies

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figure out like their internal controls and all

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of that. And then went in -house. So I was at

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the health IT company. And then over time, my

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journey just took off as the companies I was

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at, we would go through mergers and growth and

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all of that. And so as I got more responsibilities,

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I moved up successfully. So I started at that

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company as a controller and moved into the VP

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finance role as I took on the finance side. And

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then eventually I moved into a biotech company

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that was actually using AI to develop drugs to

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treat depression. And then that was kind of my

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first CFO role because I was the one running

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the finance side of the house. And then from

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there, then I moved into a CFO role during COVID.

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So for a company that was developing a at -home

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infectious disease test. And then at that point,

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Since I've done so many of these companies where

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you're running the show, the company I'm at currently

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approached me and said, wow, since you've done

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all this work with companies that have done acquisitions

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have really gotten like, for example, that biotech

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company I was at, we prep for IPO. They're like,

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how about you come and be a full -time CFO for

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a bunch of fractional companies. That was five

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years ago. And I've done that ever since. Oh,

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wow. So when you went fractional, when you first

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got, you went to that fractional role, what surprised

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you the most? You know what surprised me the

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most? was two things. It's one, it was learning

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how to let go from you're basically an advisor.

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So you have that differentiation between being

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an owner, like when you're in health, you really

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want to say to the CEO, like, hey, this is what

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we need to do and then go fully execute. Whereas

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with an advisor, you are executing, but at some

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point you have to say, okay, if that... CEO wants

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to do something and it may be something that

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you disagree with, you can tell them, hey, here's

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what you should do. But if they still go do it,

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you let them go do it. And then the second thing

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I found was when I joined the current company

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I'm at, it was 2021. So we were still in the

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middle of the pandemic and we were starting to

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see a shift in life sciences. So we're starting

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to see a lot of that downturn. And what I found

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was as companies would struggle with funding,

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oftentimes you'd advise them like, Hey, if you

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don't think about these three or four things

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to fund your business, you're probably going

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to run out of cash before you get to accomplish

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what you want to do. Whether it's to bring your

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great drug to market, whether it's to achieve

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your next fundraising milestone or something

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like that. And I was amazed that oftentimes they

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wouldn't think about how they take that fuel,

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which is that cash or that funding, and be able

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to really see it through and ultimately would

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run out of cash. Wow. And so as a fractional

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CFO, you work with a lot of founders now. I'm

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curious to hear when founders come to you with

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a big vision, always have big vision, say our

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CEOs, how do you help them translate that into

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a financial plan that can actually support it?

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Cause like you said, you can have a big plan,

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but be short on their balance sheet, especially

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when it comes to cash. So how do you walk them

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through that journey? It's a great question.

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So how I walk them through that journey and it

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can be oftentimes they're coming to us and myself

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and maybe a team, it's really understanding where

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they want to end up. So they may give me a call

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and they may say they want to go IPO tomorrow,

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which is like, okay, well that may or may not

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happen, but we can try. Or they may be ultimately

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looking to be. acquired and be part of a larger

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pharma someday. But it's really working with

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that partner or CEO founder to understand what

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their ultimate vision is. So where do they want

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their company to go? And how do they want their

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technology or their therapeutic to live on? So

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are they taking it all the way like with us in

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development, we have different phases. So we

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have like that ideation phase, we have that development

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phase, like does it go through clinical trials

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oftentimes? And then we have that commercial

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And so I partner with them to see, okay, how

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far do they want to take this business? And then

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we kind of work backwards from there to develop

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that basically that long -term strategy and those

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financial models that can support them through

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that fundraising process. Okay. And so when you

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come in and you, like you said, I think in life

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sciences, the life cycle is quite long, right?

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Cause I used to work for a pharma company as

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well. Um, so how are you able to say to these

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businesses that have this kind of long life cycle,

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how do you keep cashing? your bank account? How

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do you get funded? Yeah, so it's interesting

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because oftentimes these companies may have no

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revenue or maybe early stage revenue. So a lot

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of it is founded almost on it's really understanding

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that valuation and that potential. And so what

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we're thinking through in terms of funding rounds

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is it depends on where they are in that development

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cycle. And so, for example, if they're very early

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stage, so they're really at that, okay, we're

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thinking about this idea where we have the science,

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but we don't have, okay, it hasn't gone through

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clinical development. We may not have gone through

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human proof of concept data. It's really showing

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the investors what they have available. So at

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that point it's the people, it's the early stage

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potential from any scientific studies they have,

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but it's really that long -term potential to

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see could this eventually become a drug that

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could help people. Then if they're later stage,

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and like let's say they're looking to go to the

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public markets, it's have they taken... whatever

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they developed and significantly do you risk

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it. Plus they've also have a built out the business

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to really be a standalone public company that

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can basically turn out different milestones quarterly,

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annually, and have a team that can really partner

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externally and build out that public company

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infrastructure. Okay. So now let's bring it back

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to just any company trying to go from where they

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are now. So that IDH and process all the way

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to IPO. Can you walk us through how that's. out

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of funding works from series A, B, all the way,

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all the way. I'd love to be a private company

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at Z. That'd be amazing. So really when you think

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about it, it's, and cause I know that the A,

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B, C and all that kind of starts to get muddy

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nowadays. A is really idea. So it's your, you're

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betting on the founder. You're betting on the

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founder and can they execute? So what do they

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have? Do they have a great product? Do they have

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a great team? Towards B, you're thinking about

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proof of concept. So have they started to build

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out the team? Have they started to get traction?

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So like if they have a product or service, do

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they have a minimum viable product or do they

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have early sales if they're a revenue generating

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company? By the time you get towards C, and this

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is kind of where it gets muddled because you

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could be B1, B2, C2, blah, blah, blah. But that

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is really about have you started to D. risk your

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asset, build out your team, and also have you

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start to build out the business to take you to

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that next stage. And the next stage can be again,

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the E to Fs or even the public market. So really

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are you able to scale and have consistent robust

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milestones or maybe you have more assets, more

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service lines, more segments and things like

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that. So it's kind of the way to think about

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it, basically that growth trajectory. And oftentimes

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investors are really looking for that billion

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dollar company. So what is it that's unique about

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the team, about the founder that's really going

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to take you from point A all the way up to that

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trajectory and that scale. And so as the companies

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are moving through these rounds, how do you help

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founders figure out whether debt or equity is

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a better choice? That is a great question on

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that perspective because it's really all about

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how do you found that company and how do you

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add that fuel to really get your company through

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to realize your vision? And so it's pulling those

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levers to say what is it that can extend your

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runway? And then also how do you think through

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what makes sense for the company long term? So

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when we think about debt, debt is always a good

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lever when a company company has additional capital.

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So like if it has equity with debt, then that

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means what debt can do is it can really enhance

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the company. Or oftentimes a lot of the companies

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I partner with, if they're very capital intensive,

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debt may be a good lever. So for example, equipment

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loans to really help find a way to leverage and

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extend the runway because you take out an equipment

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loan and then you can really think through, okay,

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I can use like my equity funding to then extend

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my runway and focus on the development side,

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whereas the debt is focused on the equipment.

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And so at which point would you say, especially

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for the founders that come to you when they're

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like, okay, I'm just calling you, I'm stressed

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out. What would you say are the biggest mistakes

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you see founders make during these fundraising

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rounds? Yeah. So it's when they call us and they're

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stressed out, it's, it's when they start to think

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too narrow and then they start to say, okay,

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I don't need X, Y, and Z. And by, I mean, X,

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Y, and Z. I mean, like, for example, if we're

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at mid stage, they forgo building the operation.

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and they focus exclusively on building just their

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science or their asset or their technology. Because

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the thing they always want to keep in mind is

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if they want to be a standalone company, how

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do you de -risk the full picture for investors?

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But also more importantly, where do they want

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to be as a company overall for themselves? And

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also talking to those investors that make sense

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to partner with them as well. because sometimes

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I see a mistake is they'll go for example a biotech

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may be talking to a tech investor that may not

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be fully aligned with their mission and vision.

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And then if they get funding from that tech investor,

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that may not work or vice versa, you know? So

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it's always making sure that you have the right

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funding from somebody who really aligns with

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your vision and vice versa. Okay. I'm always

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curious to hear, especially when it comes to

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cash management and building a sustainable business.

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Most founders don't have a background in finance.

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So what has been some advice or go -to moves

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you've done? to bring them along with you all

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the way. Because like you said, they may choose

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to say, I don't want XYZ, but you as a finance

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person, you know that XYZ is needed, whether

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it's for your investor relationship or just having

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enough runway to make it till the end. So what

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have been your go -to moves? Yeah. So my go -to

00:12:13.850 --> 00:12:16.009
moves are really to bring them along in the process.

00:12:16.049 --> 00:12:18.730
It's meaning that founder where they're at and

00:12:18.730 --> 00:12:21.409
then helping educate them in a way that makes

00:12:21.409 --> 00:12:23.950
sense for that person and that person's personality.

00:12:24.029 --> 00:12:26.899
And what I mean by that is sometimes if you have

00:12:26.899 --> 00:12:29.399
a founder that's early stage at a seed stage,

00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:32.340
they may not necessarily need a high power CFO.

00:12:32.700 --> 00:12:35.179
They may want a controller or head of finance

00:12:35.179 --> 00:12:37.360
who can be that day -to -day partner and can

00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.259
really get the tactical work done and really

00:12:40.259 --> 00:12:42.659
partner with them from that perspective. But

00:12:42.659 --> 00:12:45.379
then my role as a fractional CFO is to really

00:12:45.379 --> 00:12:47.620
be that strategic thought partner to them to

00:12:47.620 --> 00:12:49.659
check in with them periodically and see, okay,

00:12:49.779 --> 00:12:52.039
are you thinking about your next milestone or

00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:54.220
your next development process? And then really

00:12:54.220 --> 00:12:57.080
be there to answer any questions. It can be anything

00:12:57.080 --> 00:12:59.899
as simple as, okay, what should your monthly

00:12:59.899 --> 00:13:02.820
burn be for a company at this stage? So it's

00:13:02.820 --> 00:13:05.159
really being there to be their sounding board

00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:07.279
about these questions that will come up that

00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:09.659
they may be getting from investors on the finance

00:13:09.659 --> 00:13:11.340
side and help them think through those strategic

00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:13.759
items. Okay. I would like to pause a little bit

00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:17.620
here on the ideal finance structure as a company

00:13:17.620 --> 00:13:21.340
scales, right? We thinking, like you said, you

00:13:21.340 --> 00:13:24.389
start up maybe need a bookkeeper or controller,

00:13:24.590 --> 00:13:26.789
but you probably see also new fractional CFOs.

00:13:26.789 --> 00:13:29.309
So can you walk us a bit through how do funders

00:13:29.309 --> 00:13:32.590
can realize or other finance people realize when

00:13:32.590 --> 00:13:35.990
to grow the finance and accounting function and

00:13:35.990 --> 00:13:38.549
how, like which roles do you bring in at which

00:13:38.549 --> 00:13:41.330
point? That's a fantastic question because one

00:13:41.330 --> 00:13:43.230
of the things you want to do is you never want

00:13:43.230 --> 00:13:45.929
to, and this is for any role, is scale too early.

00:13:46.309 --> 00:13:48.470
And so the way to think about it, and this is

00:13:48.470 --> 00:13:51.049
probably due reason we have such a growth in

00:13:51.049 --> 00:13:53.570
fractional roles or even the reason my now exist

00:13:53.570 --> 00:13:57.690
is bring on the expertise when you need it and

00:13:57.690 --> 00:14:00.610
leverage consultants i .e. the fractional roles

00:14:00.610 --> 00:14:03.169
until you get to that point of okay you're using

00:14:03.169 --> 00:14:06.789
somebody 40 hours or more per week and specifically

00:14:06.789 --> 00:14:08.470
to your question about what do the teams look

00:14:08.470 --> 00:14:10.850
like at each stage it can be slightly different

00:14:10.850 --> 00:14:13.610
depending on the company so if you have a small

00:14:13.610 --> 00:14:16.710
company where they just have us operations and

00:14:16.710 --> 00:14:19.029
they're very simple maybe they're pre -revenue

00:14:19.029 --> 00:14:22.320
and their burn is a million dollars a month They

00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:24.419
may not need a very large team at the beginning,

00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:26.820
but then when they go public, they may need to

00:14:26.820 --> 00:14:29.779
supplement with additional technical resources,

00:14:29.940 --> 00:14:33.419
bring on the CFO, all of that, versus a early

00:14:33.419 --> 00:14:35.700
stage company that's technically a Series A,

00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:38.879
but has raised $300 million and plans to go IPO

00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:41.220
a year from now. That may need a bigger team.

00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:44.500
So the way to think about it is in terms of scale

00:14:44.500 --> 00:14:47.460
and in terms of complexity from the business

00:14:47.460 --> 00:14:50.879
operations too. Okay. When you think about the

00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:54.360
actual talent, so we agree on you need a controller.

00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:58.440
Um, but then who else do you need? Because at

00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:00.379
some point we have to think about internal controls.

00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:02.860
And once you go public, you want to build that

00:15:02.860 --> 00:15:05.279
structure before you go public. But unfortunately,

00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:08.220
a lot of people see accounting as a cost. Finance

00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:10.679
as you guys are too expensive. What are you doing?

00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:13.299
So what are your thoughts on that? My thoughts

00:15:13.299 --> 00:15:15.299
on that are it's either you pay now or you pay

00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:17.500
later. So the way to think about it is it's like

00:15:17.500 --> 00:15:19.919
deferred maintenance. on your car. So it's you

00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:22.360
can do your oil changes or you can wait till

00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:25.000
the catalytic converter blows up and then go

00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:27.840
fix it all at once. And so this is where the

00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:30.240
leverage of like a fractional model becomes really

00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:33.080
important is if you bring on strategic resources

00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:36.580
early, so like a strategic CFO, even strategic

00:15:36.580 --> 00:15:39.620
legal or ops, those are good resources to supplement

00:15:39.620 --> 00:15:42.580
even at a few hours a month because they can

00:15:42.580 --> 00:15:44.899
help you think through, okay, what are those

00:15:44.899 --> 00:15:48.389
roadblocks that you may be missing? And so that's

00:15:48.389 --> 00:15:50.450
the thing to think about is that I know I see

00:15:50.450 --> 00:15:52.250
a lot of founders sometimes forget is they'll

00:15:52.250 --> 00:15:54.129
say, okay, I want a controller now and I'll keep

00:15:54.129 --> 00:15:56.070
me running for a few years. And then they may

00:15:56.070 --> 00:15:58.450
find out the hard way that, okay, I should have

00:15:58.450 --> 00:16:00.470
been back to the debtor equity question. Maybe

00:16:00.470 --> 00:16:02.350
I could have been thinking about bringing on

00:16:02.350 --> 00:16:04.450
debt when I'm closing my round. And that's what

00:16:04.450 --> 00:16:06.950
a strategic CFO can really help them with because

00:16:06.950 --> 00:16:08.870
they tend to have the connections to the different

00:16:08.870 --> 00:16:10.649
lenders and think about the different sources

00:16:10.649 --> 00:16:13.590
of capital. Now I like how you keep saying strategic

00:16:13.590 --> 00:16:16.409
CFO. So I'm curious to hear what's your definition

00:16:16.409 --> 00:16:20.090
of strategic CFO. And as you think about the

00:16:20.090 --> 00:16:23.929
life cycle of a company, the maturity stages

00:16:23.929 --> 00:16:27.269
of the company, what kind of CFO do companies

00:16:27.269 --> 00:16:30.450
need at each stage? Yeah. So my definition of

00:16:30.450 --> 00:16:33.690
a strategic CFO is a CFO who understands the

00:16:33.690 --> 00:16:38.049
business and is really a partner to the CEO,

00:16:38.409 --> 00:16:41.090
the executive team, and the board. And that's

00:16:41.090 --> 00:16:43.409
regardless of industry. So it's somebody who

00:16:43.409 --> 00:16:47.029
really understands how the business runs. So

00:16:47.029 --> 00:16:50.289
what are the key drivers of revenue? If the company

00:16:50.289 --> 00:16:53.789
has revenue or the product development. So like

00:16:53.789 --> 00:16:56.110
in biotech, oftentimes we're pre -revenue. So

00:16:56.110 --> 00:16:58.330
you really need to understand that at the CFO

00:16:58.330 --> 00:17:01.769
level. And then even down into the lower levels

00:17:01.769 --> 00:17:04.430
too, for finance. So every single team member

00:17:04.430 --> 00:17:07.109
of finance and operations should really be those

00:17:07.109 --> 00:17:10.390
partners to the rest of the business. how that's

00:17:10.390 --> 00:17:12.410
how we end up transitioning from what we're reviewed

00:17:12.410 --> 00:17:15.450
as a cost center to more of a partner. for the

00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:17.950
rest of the business value driver. Okay. And

00:17:17.950 --> 00:17:20.589
then as the company mature, so part of the startup

00:17:20.589 --> 00:17:23.990
stage, what are the kind of skills that founders

00:17:23.990 --> 00:17:26.829
or CFO may want to bring in? Because how you

00:17:26.829 --> 00:17:29.250
run a business when it's just scaling or pre

00:17:29.250 --> 00:17:31.450
-revenue is definitely different than when you

00:17:31.450 --> 00:17:34.990
are or you pass the startup stage. Now you have,

00:17:35.069 --> 00:17:37.650
let's say quality compliance to be done and all

00:17:37.650 --> 00:17:40.509
that other good stuff. Yeah. So the, the skillsets

00:17:40.509 --> 00:17:42.609
to bring in beyond that stage. So really the

00:17:42.609 --> 00:17:44.910
growth stage in the public stage are in. who

00:17:44.910 --> 00:17:47.930
are very familiar with internal controls and

00:17:47.930 --> 00:17:50.279
then additionally Individuals who are familiar

00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:53.839
with leveraging technology to build segregation

00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:56.940
of duties and compliance. So really to make it

00:17:56.940 --> 00:17:59.660
easy for the business to get greater insights

00:17:59.660 --> 00:18:02.859
faster. And what I mean by that is like, for

00:18:02.859 --> 00:18:04.819
example, we're starting to see a lot of growth

00:18:04.819 --> 00:18:07.359
with artificial intelligence being able to give

00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:10.420
us financial data sooner, but really you need

00:18:10.420 --> 00:18:12.880
individuals who can understand how to weigh the

00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:16.000
pros and cons of what type of technology to implement.

00:18:16.220 --> 00:18:18.019
So that way you can give your business partners,

00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:21.319
so like your manufacturing team or your commercial

00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:24.180
team data that they can use to make decisions.

00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:26.099
And that's really important. And then of course,

00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:27.859
when you go public, you really need to make sure

00:18:27.859 --> 00:18:30.940
you have your technical team either outsourced

00:18:30.940 --> 00:18:32.839
or in -house so that way you can deal with your

00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:35.279
SEC compliance requirements as well. Oh, let's

00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.160
talk about that part because you do that a lot.

00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:42.559
What are some of the things you will say you

00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.599
wish people knew about going public? Because

00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:48.259
when we hear a company going public, everybody's

00:18:48.259 --> 00:18:51.480
thinking mula money coming in. But what are the

00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:55.099
realities of transitioning from the startup stage

00:18:55.099 --> 00:18:58.299
to becoming a public company? The biggest reality

00:18:58.299 --> 00:19:01.740
is it's not the end state. It's the start of

00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:04.799
a new wave. And so that's the piece that I think

00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:07.259
is always an evolution for a lot of individuals

00:19:07.259 --> 00:19:10.259
to understand. And that is a big transition for

00:19:10.259 --> 00:19:12.000
a lot of companies, especially when it happens

00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:14.920
very fast, because all of a sudden finance goes

00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:18.319
from more of an internal function to the, it

00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:21.529
becomes a very external facing organization,

00:19:21.730 --> 00:19:25.250
where you're partnering even more so with your

00:19:25.250 --> 00:19:28.529
CEO, with your teams and even, I mean, the CFO

00:19:28.529 --> 00:19:30.750
is directly talking oftentimes to analysts, to

00:19:30.750 --> 00:19:32.430
bankers and everything to say, okay, here's what's

00:19:32.430 --> 00:19:34.349
going on with the company. And then more importantly,

00:19:34.849 --> 00:19:36.769
everyone in the company starts to learn whatever

00:19:36.769 --> 00:19:39.609
you say out there can actually impact, you have

00:19:39.609 --> 00:19:42.089
a stock price and that can impact things. And

00:19:42.089 --> 00:19:44.490
a lot of individuals who have been in just the

00:19:44.490 --> 00:19:47.490
private company world may not understand that.

00:19:47.630 --> 00:19:50.910
So it's a, it's a mind. And it's a good fun mind

00:19:50.910 --> 00:19:53.230
shift, but it's also just, okay, you go IPO and

00:19:53.230 --> 00:19:55.269
you're not done. It's your starting and it literally

00:19:55.269 --> 00:19:57.950
starts from day one and you hit the ground running.

00:19:58.309 --> 00:20:00.890
And basically depending on when you go IPO, it

00:20:00.890 --> 00:20:02.849
can be three months after that your queues out

00:20:02.849 --> 00:20:05.150
or it can be who knows two weeks after that.

00:20:05.210 --> 00:20:06.750
So it just depends on what day you pick to go

00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:09.450
public. Okay. And what would you say is the right

00:20:09.450 --> 00:20:12.230
thing to do when a company should stay private

00:20:12.230 --> 00:20:15.920
versus going through a public. offering. It really

00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:18.359
depends on what the objectives are of the company

00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:21.039
long term. We are starting to see a lot of this

00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.160
trend come back, which was around actually when

00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:26.500
I was at my company, the AI neuro company, which

00:20:26.500 --> 00:20:28.519
is they're thinking through doing the dual track

00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:31.500
of IPO and M &A. Number one is, is the company

00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:34.039
ready for the rigor of being a public organization?

00:20:34.180 --> 00:20:37.019
So do they have the operational infrastructure

00:20:37.019 --> 00:20:40.119
to turn out public company financials and public

00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:42.559
company reporting every quarter? But more importantly

00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:45.119
too, on the business side, Do they have those

00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:47.619
upcoming milestones? So where are they at? Are

00:20:47.619 --> 00:20:50.059
they like, if it's revenue generating, what does

00:20:50.059 --> 00:20:51.740
their product line look like? Are they going

00:20:51.740 --> 00:20:54.920
to have a good cadence of product initiatives?

00:20:55.099 --> 00:20:56.740
Are they going to have different milestones where

00:20:56.740 --> 00:20:58.640
they can really say, okay, every single quarter,

00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:00.700
we're going to have something come out because

00:21:00.700 --> 00:21:02.940
they really are. It's almost like you now have

00:21:02.940 --> 00:21:05.160
a flashlight shown on the company that wasn't

00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:06.460
there when you're private. And so it's really

00:21:06.460 --> 00:21:09.319
understanding is the organization ready for that?

00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:11.759
And is the executive team ready for that as well

00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:14.500
as the board? Okay. that's what the IPO what

00:21:14.500 --> 00:21:16.900
about the M &A route? Yeah so the M &A route

00:21:16.900 --> 00:21:20.259
makes more sense in a couple situations. One

00:21:20.259 --> 00:21:24.200
is if there is a synergistic M &A where it's

00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:27.160
like you meet you may have a partner like a merger

00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:29.539
of equals situation where you may have somebody

00:21:29.539 --> 00:21:32.359
who's a complementary product or a product that

00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:34.660
could align really well where you can fit in

00:21:34.660 --> 00:21:36.680
nicely with that organization. So that's a good

00:21:36.680 --> 00:21:39.200
opportunity. Or if you're looking to go public

00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:42.299
but then as you're looking to go public a larger

00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:45.240
organization may say, okay, you actually make

00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:47.680
sense to be in our complimentary portfolio. Then

00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:49.759
that may make sense for you to say, okay, this

00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:52.339
is a better path for us long -term versus being

00:21:52.339 --> 00:21:54.640
standalone. Because if we think about what is

00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:56.680
the end state of our business and our product,

00:21:56.740 --> 00:22:00.000
let's go that route. Okay. M &A is another term,

00:22:00.339 --> 00:22:03.279
just like IPO, we hear mula when we hear, like,

00:22:03.299 --> 00:22:05.779
we're getting bigger. And then finance and accounting

00:22:05.779 --> 00:22:13.059
is like, oh, we scared. Go ahead. Oh, you can

00:22:13.059 --> 00:22:15.839
feel it. No, exactly. Well, it's funny because

00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:18.640
I've been through, I think, on both sides, the

00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:20.640
buy side and sell side. I think I've been through

00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:24.200
over 50 in my career. And I think the thing is

00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:26.859
the transition with the people, the finance and

00:22:26.859 --> 00:22:29.490
the operation. So there's like. three different

00:22:29.490 --> 00:22:31.910
sides to M &A that people just don't even realize.

00:22:32.150 --> 00:22:34.670
Yeah. So curious to hear your stories, especially

00:22:34.670 --> 00:22:37.190
around the buy side versus the sell side. Like

00:22:37.190 --> 00:22:39.210
what are the things you probably learned the

00:22:39.210 --> 00:22:41.869
hard way and now recommend people do? What are

00:22:41.869 --> 00:22:45.250
they on each side? Yeah. I think, um, on the

00:22:45.250 --> 00:22:48.250
thing I recommend people don't do is don't ignore

00:22:48.250 --> 00:22:50.769
the people on the transactions, especially when

00:22:50.769 --> 00:22:53.130
you're thinking about these ones, like the mergers

00:22:53.130 --> 00:22:55.349
of equals concept, where when you're combining

00:22:55.349 --> 00:22:57.930
companies, because there's value between the

00:22:57.930 --> 00:23:00.299
combined organizations. Because where I've seen

00:23:00.299 --> 00:23:03.740
that go awry is if, for example, you don't think

00:23:03.740 --> 00:23:06.059
about, okay, lockup agreements for the individuals,

00:23:06.099 --> 00:23:08.319
so you don't think about the compensation arrangements

00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:11.259
beforehand, you may lose key individuals from

00:23:11.259 --> 00:23:14.779
both teams. Or the other piece too is if you're

00:23:14.779 --> 00:23:18.220
scaling an organization and you combine the two

00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:19.839
organizations, now all of a sudden you have double

00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:22.740
of everything potentially. So you may have two

00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:25.960
IT organizations, your finance teams, you may

00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:29.039
have one organization that's more robust or oftentimes

00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:31.799
the transactions I've been through, especially

00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:34.759
on the buy side, we had a very robust finance

00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:37.619
team and then we acquired a company that. didn't

00:23:37.619 --> 00:23:39.500
and we hadn't, and sometimes we hadn't thought

00:23:39.500 --> 00:23:41.859
through, okay, what does that look like? So it

00:23:41.859 --> 00:23:44.400
would oftentimes take a lot of cleanup of that

00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:46.559
organization post transaction. And there wasn't

00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:48.819
consideration around how long that cleanup truly

00:23:48.819 --> 00:23:51.119
takes. So it was things like that to think about

00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:54.180
upfront. And then on the sales side, like you

00:23:54.180 --> 00:23:56.200
just said, you, you acquire a company, you have

00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:58.619
to do more cleanup. What would you say and how

00:23:58.619 --> 00:24:00.900
should finance be involved when they're in the

00:24:00.900 --> 00:24:04.019
sales side process or the buy side process? Because

00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:07.150
I feel like we often not included. conversation

00:24:07.150 --> 00:24:09.230
and then it's like why don't you guys have your

00:24:09.230 --> 00:24:14.029
stuff together by now we should be involved as

00:24:14.029 --> 00:24:16.809
early as as possible because of the lens we have

00:24:16.809 --> 00:24:19.730
in finance we tend to see businesses at that

00:24:19.730 --> 00:24:23.130
like 10 000 foot level so we can identify early

00:24:23.130 --> 00:24:26.109
on in the diligence process if there's gap in

00:24:26.109 --> 00:24:28.829
the organization so like you can look at a finance

00:24:28.829 --> 00:24:31.740
um like you look at the balance sheet oftentimes

00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:35.200
and see, okay, are they missing key obligations?

00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:38.039
Or is there something that we see post -close

00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:40.859
where if we look at the employee agreements,

00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:43.660
is there some employee that may or may not have

00:24:43.660 --> 00:24:46.160
a compensation agreement that should have? Or

00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:48.519
does somebody have some interesting compensation

00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:50.920
agreement that may become an issue afterwards?

00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:53.779
And so if we get involved in the diligence process,

00:24:53.779 --> 00:24:56.579
we can usually see pretty quickly some of the

00:24:56.579 --> 00:24:59.500
potential things to look out for during a transaction.

00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:03.319
I'm curious to hear any war story or horror story,

00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:05.619
I should say, during the M &A deal. Like you

00:25:05.619 --> 00:25:10.480
were like, ooh, we're not doing this again. The

00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.480
one was, there was one I was dealing with where,

00:25:13.539 --> 00:25:15.400
so I was on the side where we all agreed that

00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:17.779
we were going to keep it as confidential as possible

00:25:17.779 --> 00:25:19.279
because we all knew the transaction was going

00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:21.779
to happen about six months beforehand. On the

00:25:21.779 --> 00:25:24.400
other side, and this was from most of the employees,

00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:26.220
so there's only a handful of individuals who

00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:28.460
knew, the senior executives and that was it.

00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:30.859
The other side, because it was we were combining

00:25:30.859 --> 00:25:33.779
the companies, the other side did not opt to

00:25:33.779 --> 00:25:36.539
do that. So they told the entire organization

00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:39.660
of 40 people that they were going to get acquired.

00:25:39.950 --> 00:25:42.869
So because of that, they started changing things

00:25:42.869 --> 00:25:45.589
in advance of the pending acquisition. And so

00:25:45.589 --> 00:25:47.589
they would do things like they raise people's

00:25:47.589 --> 00:25:50.029
salaries, gave them promotions. And then they

00:25:50.029 --> 00:25:53.509
also decided part of the combination was we were

00:25:53.509 --> 00:25:56.150
planning to combine a new tech platform. So they

00:25:56.150 --> 00:25:57.849
also decided to go change the tech platform.

00:25:57.950 --> 00:25:59.890
And so we now had a situation where we had to

00:25:59.890 --> 00:26:03.690
deal with not just combination of two tech platforms,

00:26:03.789 --> 00:26:07.799
we had a third one. So is a lesson learned? I

00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:10.319
would make sure that everyone agrees up front

00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:13.299
who's involved in the diligence process, what

00:26:13.299 --> 00:26:15.940
we're going to be communicating beforehand, during,

00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:19.279
and after. Because those decisions made by the

00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:21.960
team on the other side led to some interesting

00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:24.559
dynamics post -close. Wow. Yeah, that sounds

00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:29.740
like the worst. Yeah. It created some fun integration

00:26:29.740 --> 00:26:33.839
concerns. Oh, wow. Thanks for sharing. Now, looking

00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.599
ahead, I know there's a lot about technology

00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:41.599
changing fundraising, uh, whether it's MNA going

00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:45.119
IPO. Do you think AI is changing the way investors

00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:47.900
discover or evaluate companies? Like how does

00:26:47.900 --> 00:26:52.180
it affect that CEO CFO relationship? Yeah. So

00:26:52.180 --> 00:26:55.450
I do think AI is changing it in a good way. And

00:26:55.450 --> 00:26:58.569
what I mean by that is AI is allowing number

00:26:58.569 --> 00:27:02.029
one for the potential discovery of organizations

00:27:02.029 --> 00:27:05.029
that may or may not have been targets beforehand,

00:27:05.549 --> 00:27:08.509
because you can do a lot more diligence quicker.

00:27:08.809 --> 00:27:11.849
with AI. Anyone at this point can build a simple

00:27:11.849 --> 00:27:14.769
agent within their LLM of choice that says, okay,

00:27:14.769 --> 00:27:17.529
I want to discover X, Y, and Z and target these

00:27:17.529 --> 00:27:19.309
industries. So you have that all the way to you

00:27:19.309 --> 00:27:22.289
have fully robust built out diligence agents

00:27:22.289 --> 00:27:24.490
that can really help you figure out these processes.

00:27:24.710 --> 00:27:27.650
So that is speeding up the M &A process as well

00:27:27.650 --> 00:27:30.049
as the IPO process. And then what that means

00:27:30.049 --> 00:27:33.809
for CFOs and CEOs is you can also expect deeper

00:27:33.809 --> 00:27:37.250
questions during the M &A and IPO process. And

00:27:37.250 --> 00:27:39.680
then as well as you may get a random outreach

00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:42.279
or inbound from investors that you may not have

00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:44.400
even thought of before. But on the flip side,

00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:48.500
CFOs and CEOs can use AI to think about, okay,

00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:51.059
if you want to ultimately go through a transaction

00:27:51.059 --> 00:27:53.480
or IPO process, who are those targets you want

00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:55.700
to reach out to? So who are those investors or

00:27:55.700 --> 00:27:58.039
who are those strategic partners that you may

00:27:58.039 --> 00:27:59.819
not have originally thought? thought of that

00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:02.339
could be tangential to your typical targets.

00:28:02.740 --> 00:28:06.240
Nice. Nice. I'm always looking for stories, right?

00:28:08.460 --> 00:28:10.779
Is there any set out story from your time as

00:28:10.779 --> 00:28:14.259
a CFO that really taught you something you want?

00:28:14.930 --> 00:28:18.309
CEOs, founders, or finance leaders to here. Because

00:28:18.309 --> 00:28:21.809
like you said, AI is changing how we do M &A,

00:28:21.930 --> 00:28:24.710
IPO, how we do finance, how we do work overall.

00:28:25.049 --> 00:28:27.670
But one thing I'm sure is there are certain things

00:28:27.670 --> 00:28:29.769
that will not necessarily change. Like you said,

00:28:29.829 --> 00:28:31.849
for example, there is an M &A. Let's agree on

00:28:31.849 --> 00:28:34.750
what we say, what we don't say. What is probably

00:28:34.750 --> 00:28:38.150
a story that helped you kind of develop your

00:28:38.150 --> 00:28:42.069
to do and to don't list? Yeah, one was interesting

00:28:42.069 --> 00:28:44.799
to me and it was actually about five or six years

00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:48.019
ago. So it was one of the first venture funds

00:28:48.019 --> 00:28:50.539
I've come across that was actually using AI in

00:28:50.539 --> 00:28:55.279
its process was I did diligence. I was sitting

00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:59.559
CFO in -house and we were doing a series B fundraise

00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:01.900
and a venture fund approach us and their entire

00:29:01.900 --> 00:29:04.319
process was done by AI. So they actually let

00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:06.700
the algorithm determine whether to invest in

00:29:06.700 --> 00:29:08.900
us or not. And the way it worked was it was a

00:29:08.900 --> 00:29:11.640
two -part process. They met with us. So it was

00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.319
the analyst and then the algorithm recorded our

00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:16.480
pitch and then they went through our data room

00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:18.299
and that's it. And then they give you a score

00:29:18.299 --> 00:29:21.430
and then they say yes or no. Wow. That was the

00:29:21.430 --> 00:29:23.450
most interesting thing to me but what I took

00:29:23.450 --> 00:29:25.910
away from it was they did give us compliments

00:29:25.910 --> 00:29:28.289
on our data room, ultimately decided not to invest

00:29:28.289 --> 00:29:30.069
because of the stage of the product. What I took

00:29:30.069 --> 00:29:32.609
away from it was make sure our pitch is on point

00:29:32.609 --> 00:29:35.250
and then also always make sure your data room

00:29:35.250 --> 00:29:39.569
is clean and truly tells your story of the company

00:29:39.569 --> 00:29:41.890
because you never know, okay, when somebody is

00:29:41.890 --> 00:29:44.009
going to choose to say we're going to rely on

00:29:44.009 --> 00:29:47.329
this technology that we've built that has our

00:29:47.329 --> 00:29:50.640
internal knowledge and go with it. Wow. See,

00:29:50.779 --> 00:29:53.140
this kind of thing makes me both excited and

00:29:53.140 --> 00:29:55.940
scared at the same time, right? I'm excited because

00:29:55.940 --> 00:29:59.359
it means that I can check myself, right? If I

00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:02.319
have that algorithm, I can double check to see

00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:04.500
where are the gaps in my data room, for example,

00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:08.000
the gaps in my pitch. So it allows me to be ready,

00:30:08.259 --> 00:30:11.099
but then... can be scary if you have been in

00:30:11.099 --> 00:30:13.640
this process for a while and now AI comes and

00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:16.460
you're like, oops, where do I start? Exactly.

00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:18.420
Yeah. And so that's always the hard part is like,

00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:20.480
you have to think about, okay, how do I prepare?

00:30:20.940 --> 00:30:23.019
But then the AI can also conversely, it's like,

00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:26.200
okay, that AI was judging us, but then now we

00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:29.329
have access to AI that can help us prep. and

00:30:29.329 --> 00:30:31.789
think through what we're missing. So that's always

00:30:31.789 --> 00:30:34.329
a good, that's a positive of it versus, okay,

00:30:34.490 --> 00:30:37.170
the AI is telling you yes or no, it's going to

00:30:37.170 --> 00:30:40.309
invest. Okay. And in your experience with fundraising

00:30:40.309 --> 00:30:44.829
and M &A IPO, we can see how the CFO role is

00:30:44.829 --> 00:30:49.309
becoming more and more involved and be that second

00:30:49.309 --> 00:30:52.170
person in charge next to the CEO. What are some

00:30:52.170 --> 00:30:54.769
things you will say should be included? Like

00:30:54.769 --> 00:30:57.250
people should make sure they include in their

00:30:57.250 --> 00:30:59.740
fundraising pitch. Yeah, so in their fundraising

00:30:59.740 --> 00:31:03.940
pitch, I'd always include who the team is. And

00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:07.259
importantly, what one of the things in the pitch

00:31:07.259 --> 00:31:10.180
that typically happens is they put logos of everybody.

00:31:10.339 --> 00:31:13.059
I would go a step deeper and say, here's who

00:31:13.059 --> 00:31:16.549
everyone. like where they came from and why they

00:31:16.549 --> 00:31:19.309
are the perfect people for this team. So really

00:31:19.309 --> 00:31:22.670
having that piece of it and then the other piece

00:31:22.670 --> 00:31:24.950
is of course what you plan to do with the funds.

00:31:25.049 --> 00:31:28.109
So sometimes that gets left off and then one

00:31:28.109 --> 00:31:30.509
item that I've also seen because you really only

00:31:30.509 --> 00:31:32.849
want five slides like usually in a teaser slide

00:31:32.849 --> 00:31:34.970
then of course you have the detailed conversations

00:31:34.970 --> 00:31:37.869
everything but really the why you should invest

00:31:37.869 --> 00:31:40.269
and then why you shouldn't invest. So like here's

00:31:40.269 --> 00:31:42.750
your overview slide so somebody can see really

00:31:42.750 --> 00:31:45.019
quickly What is it that makes you special? But

00:31:45.019 --> 00:31:47.299
then conversely, the ones that do really well

00:31:47.299 --> 00:31:49.779
are the ones that have said, here's why you shouldn't.

00:31:49.900 --> 00:31:52.859
And here's the things that why, like why we think

00:31:52.859 --> 00:31:54.920
you might not be the right person for us. And

00:31:54.920 --> 00:31:58.579
we've thought through those. Nice. Nice. Yeah.

00:31:58.619 --> 00:32:01.559
Definitely wanted a simple deck for the audience

00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:04.960
when you get it. Yeah. Exactly. Cause the deck

00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:07.640
really leads to a conversation. Yes. And I like

00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:09.819
that you keep it at five slides and not like

00:32:09.819 --> 00:32:15.700
a... Exactly. Everybody is busy and they want

00:32:15.700 --> 00:32:18.119
to see, okay, yes, I want a conversation or no,

00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:19.920
this is not right for us. And if it's not right

00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:21.799
for you, what'll happen is oftentimes investors

00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:24.119
will say, I may not be right for you, but I may

00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:27.880
know this person who is. And how, what are some

00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:29.880
of the things that helped you become a better

00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:33.180
picture if I can say a better fundraiser as a

00:32:33.180 --> 00:32:36.019
financial person because you're studying in forensic

00:32:36.019 --> 00:32:37.700
accounting, which means you were part of the

00:32:37.700 --> 00:32:40.039
people who said something is wrong, which is

00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:43.660
quite different from giving me money. Exactly.

00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:45.680
Well, it was interesting because back then you

00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:47.099
had to say what was wrong, but you also had to

00:32:47.099 --> 00:32:51.359
go on the stand. and explain in basically, well,

00:32:51.420 --> 00:32:53.480
one of my partners I worked with used to say,

00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:55.319
we have to explain this in terms that a 10 year

00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:57.539
old can understand. So like, for example, dividends,

00:32:57.900 --> 00:33:00.819
that's always fun trying to explain to someone

00:33:00.819 --> 00:33:04.099
or at the time the mortgage industry was collapsing.

00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:06.700
So credit default swaps, trying to explain that

00:33:06.700 --> 00:33:09.299
very simply was challenging. So what makes you

00:33:09.299 --> 00:33:12.660
a better pitcher is understanding communication.

00:33:12.859 --> 00:33:16.059
So I found some of the biggest skills that have

00:33:16.059 --> 00:33:19.079
helped me in my career are actually non -finance

00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:22.619
skills. So for example, I took a negotiation

00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:27.319
class in college that has been a great class

00:33:27.319 --> 00:33:29.700
for me because it tells me how to learn how to

00:33:29.700 --> 00:33:34.019
listen more than I speak. And even today, I really

00:33:34.019 --> 00:33:36.559
enjoy listening to individuals. So I listen to

00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:41.220
a great podcast, Diary of a CEO. I love hearing

00:33:41.220 --> 00:33:44.039
those individuals talk about communication. Because

00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:46.420
that's really what a pitch is, is it's how do

00:33:46.420 --> 00:33:49.160
you talk to somebody and deciding on both sides

00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:51.819
of the table. Does this make sense for a long

00:33:51.819 --> 00:33:54.740
-term, basically partnership? Nice. Nice. Yeah.

00:33:54.980 --> 00:33:57.359
I also realized that in my career, at some point

00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:59.859
you're, you cap out of your technical skills,

00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:02.400
taking you somewhere. It's like everything is

00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:06.380
more on the human side slash softer side of skills.

00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:08.840
Now. I have two more questions for you before

00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:12.599
I leave. First, you are a board member. You've

00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:18.239
been advising boards. And I feel like, especially

00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:20.300
in the CFO community, C -suite community, I've

00:34:20.300 --> 00:34:22.699
noticed that being on the board feels like the

00:34:22.699 --> 00:34:25.880
next natural step, right? Helping with governance

00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:28.119
and things like that. What would you say people

00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:31.340
should also be mindful of getting on the board?

00:34:31.530 --> 00:34:33.750
Exactly. It's a great question. So the other

00:34:33.750 --> 00:34:36.309
thing to be mindful of is a board tends to be

00:34:36.309 --> 00:34:40.449
a longer term journey and relationship than your

00:34:40.449 --> 00:34:42.730
CFO journey. Because when you're committing to

00:34:42.730 --> 00:34:45.389
a board, you're committing for whether things

00:34:45.389 --> 00:34:49.119
go right. or things go wrong because what happens

00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:52.199
is you're, you're there, but you're not in the

00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:55.179
day to day. So the phrase is always often knows

00:34:55.179 --> 00:34:58.320
in fingers out, which means like, okay, our tendency

00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:01.119
as CFOs is really again to the details, but the

00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:03.539
board level, we really need to. to help with

00:35:03.539 --> 00:35:06.260
governance. So making sure we ask the right questions.

00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:08.360
And so when you're thinking about whether the

00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:10.900
board journey is right for you, it's really asking,

00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:13.119
and this was part of my journey is, okay, do

00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:15.340
I align with the mission of the company? And

00:35:15.340 --> 00:35:17.900
is it a place where I can truly make a difference?

00:35:18.059 --> 00:35:20.800
And so can I really say, okay, what value can

00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:23.980
I add to that particular company? And is it a

00:35:23.980 --> 00:35:26.340
company where I really want to help them grow?

00:35:26.340 --> 00:35:28.639
And what can I bring to the table? So like we

00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:30.780
were talking about the M &A and IPO experience,

00:35:31.019 --> 00:35:33.449
the company, the board's I've chosen to join

00:35:33.449 --> 00:35:37.090
tend to have that need. And they also have that

00:35:37.090 --> 00:35:38.670
healthcare alignment because that tends to be

00:35:38.670 --> 00:35:42.409
where my passion is. Oh, nice. Nice. Any, any

00:35:42.409 --> 00:35:44.429
scary story you want to share about being on

00:35:44.429 --> 00:35:49.949
the board or dealing with the board? Of course,

00:35:50.070 --> 00:35:52.710
all poor conversations are confidential also.

00:35:53.250 --> 00:35:57.849
Um, I'd say one. Yeah, one of the more interesting

00:35:57.849 --> 00:36:00.369
conversations I've had at the board table is

00:36:00.369 --> 00:36:05.869
often when you're dealing with board conversations,

00:36:06.670 --> 00:36:10.369
I've gone in calls out of the blue where someone

00:36:10.369 --> 00:36:12.670
has done something that they probably shouldn't

00:36:12.670 --> 00:36:16.190
have, and then we've had to deal with the consequences.

00:36:16.570 --> 00:36:19.570
And so that's always the challenge is where we've

00:36:19.570 --> 00:36:23.710
had a management team member do something and

00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:26.320
we've had to figure out how to do that and also

00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:28.519
how to have that conversation with them about

00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:31.619
number one, why did they do what they did? And

00:36:31.619 --> 00:36:33.679
then number two, how do we address it? So that's

00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:36.659
always the part. It's like, how do you, because

00:36:36.659 --> 00:36:38.539
when you're at the board, everyone on your board

00:36:38.539 --> 00:36:41.659
is a peer and then your management team is also

00:36:41.659 --> 00:36:44.699
there to, you're there to help guide them. So

00:36:44.699 --> 00:36:47.159
that's the conversations that we tend to have.

00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:50.039
Oh, good. Sounds good. Then last thing, last

00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:53.360
thing I promise. What's your favorite thing to

00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:56.739
do outside of work? My favorite thing. Oh, outside

00:36:56.739 --> 00:36:59.159
of work, it's fun doing a lot of different things.

00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:02.460
But right now my favorite thing is I spend a

00:37:02.460 --> 00:37:05.440
lot of time on my Peloton app and that means

00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:08.150
I'm running. Yes, I'm running with my dog. So

00:37:08.150 --> 00:37:10.030
we've been doing a lot of training for races.

00:37:10.550 --> 00:37:14.130
And I recently just did the half marathon, um,

00:37:14.230 --> 00:37:16.710
down in surf city. So Huntington beach by the

00:37:16.710 --> 00:37:20.050
beach. So it was awesome. Oh, so you race with

00:37:20.050 --> 00:37:22.750
your dog. I do. Well, she doesn't go to the races

00:37:22.750 --> 00:37:24.809
because if we did, so she's a Siberian Husky.

00:37:24.909 --> 00:37:26.809
She would totally just want to meet everybody.

00:37:30.550 --> 00:37:33.829
But she's my training partner. So every morning

00:37:33.829 --> 00:37:36.030
she makes sure that we get out the door because

00:37:36.030 --> 00:37:39.420
if we don't. Huskies love to talk. She talks

00:37:39.420 --> 00:37:41.480
to me and tells me that I'm procrastinating.

00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:44.940
So she's the best personal trainer ever. Oh,

00:37:44.940 --> 00:37:48.599
wow. That is so cute. Oh, thank you so much for

00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:51.159
sharing. This was such a great conversation.

00:37:51.619 --> 00:37:53.679
I hope we get to see a little sample of your

00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:56.940
PJs because I always get questions from the audience

00:37:56.940 --> 00:37:59.679
about practical ways that they can apply some

00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:01.400
of the things that our guests are sharing. So

00:38:01.400 --> 00:38:03.840
thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah.

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Thank you. This has been awesome.