She won six Canadian national championships in speed skating and was training for the Olympics. Then, had a car accident at 18. Four knee surgeries. Three years of rehabilitation.
Today Lori Kaczynski is the Senior Vice President and Chief Audit, Risk, and Compliance Officer at Graphic Packaging International, a Fortune 500 company headquartered in Atlanta. She leads global internal audit, compliance, and enterprise risk management.
In this episode, I sit down in person with Lori. We talk about what competitive athletics taught her about discipline and resilience that she carries into the boardroom today. How she moved from a small Canadian town of 5,000 people to building a career in Atlanta with no coaching and no roadmap.
Why she hires internal auditors based on soft skills and culture fit before technical ability. The difference between leading audit with an enforcement mindset versus a business partner mindset and why one gets people to call you with their problems and the other makes them hide.
The Von Mises framework she uses when people resist change. How a network of 60 Fortune 500 women chief audit executives became her most valuable career resource. What her husband accidentally taught her about networking. And why she is building what she calls a "portfolio career" for what comes next.
Whether you are in audit, risk, compliance, or any finance leadership role, this conversation will challenge how you think about what it really takes to lead at a high level.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 More than 2 trillion payments flow through Atlanta
00:00:02 --> 00:00:06 every year, with an estimated 70 % of all U .S.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 credit card transactions touching the city. Yet...
00:00:08 --> 00:00:11 Most of business conversation is still centered
00:00:11 --> 00:00:14 on places like New York and San Francisco. This
00:00:14 --> 00:00:16 is a limited series where I'm sitting down in
00:00:16 --> 00:00:18 person with CFOs and senior finance leaders right
00:00:18 --> 00:00:21 here in Atlanta to learn about how they build
00:00:21 --> 00:00:23 their careers, what's working, what's different
00:00:23 --> 00:00:26 about doing it here, and get a better understanding
00:00:26 --> 00:00:29 of the humans behind the big titles. Let's get
00:00:29 --> 00:00:34 into it. Here with me today is Lori Kaczynski.
00:00:34 --> 00:00:37 Lori is a Senior Vice President, Chief Audit,
00:00:37 --> 00:00:40 Risk, and Compliance Officer at Graphic Packaging
00:00:40 --> 00:00:43 International. a Fortune 500 company headquartered
00:00:43 --> 00:00:46 right here in Atlanta, where she leads the company's
00:00:46 --> 00:00:48 global internal audit, compliance, and enterprise
00:00:48 --> 00:00:51 risk management functions. With more than 20
00:00:51 --> 00:00:54 years of experience across industries and company
00:00:54 --> 00:00:57 sizes, Lori is a powerhouse in the Atlanta business
00:00:57 --> 00:01:00 community, chairing the advisory board of Kennesaw
00:01:00 --> 00:01:03 State University School of Accountancy and serving
00:01:03 --> 00:01:05 on the board of Sheltering Arms Early Education
00:01:05 --> 00:01:08 and Family Centers. She's been named one of the
00:01:08 --> 00:01:11 Atlanta Business Chronicle's Women Who Mean Business.
00:01:11 --> 00:01:13 Now let's get to it. Welcome to the show, Lori.
00:01:13 --> 00:01:16 Thank you. I'm happy to be here. I'm really excited
00:01:16 --> 00:01:19 to engage with you and learn from each other.
00:01:20 --> 00:01:23 Oh yeah, especially me because your background,
00:01:23 --> 00:01:25 your story and so many things we talked about
00:01:25 --> 00:01:28 off record. What brought you to Atlanta? Well,
00:01:28 --> 00:01:31 I was minding my own business and living in Northwest
00:01:31 --> 00:01:35 Canada and a gentleman came along who was an
00:01:35 --> 00:01:37 American and he happened to live in Atlanta at
00:01:37 --> 00:01:43 the time. He waited until I became single and
00:01:43 --> 00:01:48 then asked me to move. Wow. Patience. Yeah. He
00:01:48 --> 00:01:51 was extremely patient, extremely kind. I was
00:01:51 --> 00:01:54 a little too busy for him, but he waited and
00:01:54 --> 00:01:57 it all turned out brilliantly. So happy to be
00:01:57 --> 00:02:00 here. Yeah. So how was life back then? What were
00:02:00 --> 00:02:03 you doing? Oh, I had, I actually went to college
00:02:03 --> 00:02:07 as a mature student. Okay. My father had a seventh
00:02:07 --> 00:02:10 grade education. My mother had a 12th grade education.
00:02:11 --> 00:02:14 And I was born in a small town. The closest cities
00:02:14 --> 00:02:19 were about eight hours a drive. And the town
00:02:19 --> 00:02:21 had 5 people in it. And it's named after
00:02:21 --> 00:02:24 a fur trapping location. So the middle of nowhere
00:02:24 --> 00:02:28 kind of upbringing. And just based on their backgrounds,
00:02:29 --> 00:02:31 there was no coaching about college, no discussion
00:02:31 --> 00:02:35 about those kinds of careers or professions or
00:02:35 --> 00:02:38 business. And so but I knew I wanted something
00:02:38 --> 00:02:41 different than what I'd seen growing up. And
00:02:41 --> 00:02:43 I just didn't know how to get there and had no
00:02:43 --> 00:02:49 coaching. So I did some hourly jobs. was offered
00:02:49 --> 00:02:52 sort of management types of roles, retail, you
00:02:52 --> 00:02:55 name it, a variety of financial services location
00:02:55 --> 00:02:59 where we would process mortgages and car loans
00:02:59 --> 00:03:02 and things. Then I met my husband, had to wait
00:03:02 --> 00:03:04 for my green card. And once I got my green card,
00:03:05 --> 00:03:08 I applied to Kennesaw State University. But I
00:03:08 --> 00:03:12 applied to be a marketing major. So pivoted a
00:03:12 --> 00:03:15 bit along the way. But yeah, I had three brothers
00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 and sisters. I think... grew up with very little.
00:03:18 --> 00:03:20 It was a household where it was who gets the
00:03:20 --> 00:03:24 next pair of shoes this year, and we all had
00:03:24 --> 00:03:28 to live with what we had. Wow, that's amazing
00:03:28 --> 00:03:30 to where you are now, you know, an executive
00:03:30 --> 00:03:33 at a fortune company, but then you were also a
00:03:33 --> 00:03:36 competitive skater at some point. Yeah, well,
00:03:36 --> 00:03:39 there's lots of ice and snow there. So it kind
00:03:39 --> 00:03:43 of lends itself to that. But, you know, my brothers
00:03:43 --> 00:03:47 and sisters and I were in very close age proximity
00:03:47 --> 00:03:49 and I was the youngest. So you just go wherever
00:03:49 --> 00:03:52 they go. And so there was hockey and figure skating
00:03:52 --> 00:03:56 and speed skating. And certainly I... Had no
00:03:56 --> 00:03:59 choice. That's where we were. So I put skates
00:03:59 --> 00:04:01 on at one year of age and just started skating.
00:04:02 --> 00:04:05 But I speed skated for a long time. I thought
00:04:05 --> 00:04:08 and my goal was to get to the Olympics. That
00:04:08 --> 00:04:10 was also maybe another way to change my life
00:04:10 --> 00:04:14 and pivot from my origin story. But some things
00:04:14 --> 00:04:16 changed along the way that we'll talk about in
00:04:16 --> 00:04:20 a minute. But I love physical activity. And I
00:04:20 --> 00:04:23 like moving and I like being outdoors. So that
00:04:23 --> 00:04:26 was all things that lend itself to it. I naturally
00:04:26 --> 00:04:29 have a lot of strength. So it was a great sport
00:04:29 --> 00:04:33 for me and loved doing it. But I also am a very
00:04:33 --> 00:04:37 hard worker and that fits well with, you know,
00:04:37 --> 00:04:41 sports. I sort of fell into it, but I loved it.
00:04:41 --> 00:04:44 And I did it all the way up until something pivoted
00:04:44 --> 00:04:46 and I couldn't continue anymore. But I won six
00:04:46 --> 00:04:49 national championships and one North American
00:04:49 --> 00:04:53 championship as well. I had a national record
00:04:53 --> 00:04:57 for a certain distance as well. Did short track
00:04:57 --> 00:04:59 like Apollo Ono does, if you remember him from
00:04:59 --> 00:05:02 the Olympics. And I also did long track, which
00:05:02 --> 00:05:05 is what Eric Hyden and some of the other great
00:05:05 --> 00:05:09 skaters have done. But I had to pivot. And you'll
00:05:09 --> 00:05:12 notice my story has a lot of pivots. Yeah, let's
00:05:12 --> 00:05:14 talk about that first pivot first, because six
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 national championships, amazing, okay? And especially
00:05:17 --> 00:05:20 when you said you started skating from the time
00:05:20 --> 00:05:24 you barely walked, like one year old. The African
00:05:24 --> 00:05:28 me is like, whoa, okay? We see ice, we go the
00:05:28 --> 00:05:31 other way. So what caused the first pivot for
00:05:31 --> 00:05:38 you? Yeah, so when I was 18, 19... Driving home
00:05:38 --> 00:05:41 for Christmas, I had moved to a small city and
00:05:41 --> 00:05:44 was driving home for Christmas, and we hit some
00:05:44 --> 00:05:47 black ice on a very wide curve. Happened to be
00:05:47 --> 00:05:49 driving a vehicle that was a little bit more
00:05:49 --> 00:05:52 top -heavy than most because we were going to
00:05:52 --> 00:05:54 bring some belongings back to our apartment.
00:05:54 --> 00:05:57 And the way the vehicle hit the snowbank, it
00:05:57 --> 00:06:00 just had snowed a lot. It was a high bank. The
00:06:00 --> 00:06:03 nose of the... Bumper went into the snowbank,
00:06:03 --> 00:06:07 and we flipped four times in four different directions
00:06:07 --> 00:06:10 for 100 feet. And they could measure what the
00:06:10 --> 00:06:14 vehicle did in the snow. And my leg was severely
00:06:14 --> 00:06:17 injured. And speed skating involves a lot of
00:06:17 --> 00:06:23 legs. So I had to sort of decide that that wasn't
00:06:23 --> 00:06:26 going to be an option anymore. And then it was
00:06:26 --> 00:06:29 about rehabilitation, to be honest. Back then,
00:06:29 --> 00:06:32 they didn't have all the amazing surgery options
00:06:32 --> 00:06:34 they have today. It was kind of stick everything
00:06:34 --> 00:06:38 back together and pray that I could walk. So
00:06:38 --> 00:06:41 it was a long time. I was on crutches for a very,
00:06:41 --> 00:06:43 very long time and then had a cane for two years.
00:06:44 --> 00:06:47 So, you know, at that point, it was about just
00:06:47 --> 00:06:50 getting well again. Wow. Now from this, like
00:06:50 --> 00:06:52 I can only imagine like what went through your
00:06:52 --> 00:06:55 mind. At that point, because you were still eyeing
00:06:55 --> 00:06:57 like the Olympic championship, like that was
00:06:57 --> 00:07:00 still where you wanted to go. What kept you going
00:07:00 --> 00:07:03 through all this? You know, the great thing about
00:07:03 --> 00:07:06 sport is it gives you resilience because you're
00:07:06 --> 00:07:08 not going to win every race. You're going to
00:07:08 --> 00:07:10 get disqualified sometimes. You're going to get
00:07:10 --> 00:07:13 pushed out of the race by somebody else or, you
00:07:13 --> 00:07:16 know, your edge on your skate. Edges are very
00:07:16 --> 00:07:19 important when you're skating on ice. you know,
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 isn't strong that day or you skate over something
00:07:21 --> 00:07:23 on the ice and you fall, you've probably seen
00:07:23 --> 00:07:25 figure skaters have that happen at the Olympics.
00:07:25 --> 00:07:29 And so you learn to just be resilient. And I
00:07:29 --> 00:07:33 think my upbringing created that as well. I was
00:07:33 --> 00:07:36 a child of divorce as well. So, you know, at
00:07:36 --> 00:07:39 about the age of 12, they separated. The age
00:07:39 --> 00:07:41 of 14, I was sort of raising myself a little
00:07:41 --> 00:07:44 bit. They were loving, amazing parents. I have
00:07:44 --> 00:07:47 nothing to complain about. But distractions happen,
00:07:47 --> 00:07:50 right, when people's worlds fall apart. And I
00:07:50 --> 00:07:52 think that just creates a person that wants more,
00:07:52 --> 00:07:55 wants to find a place where you're safe and secure.
00:07:56 --> 00:07:58 And that kept you going, right? Because then
00:07:58 --> 00:08:01 you came here eventually and then you started,
00:08:01 --> 00:08:03 you wanted to do marketing. Why marketing first
00:08:03 --> 00:08:06 and how did you switch to accounting? Yeah, I
00:08:06 --> 00:08:08 always had loved numbers. I think I told you
00:08:08 --> 00:08:11 one of my hourly jobs was working for a financial
00:08:11 --> 00:08:15 services firm. found math interesting and easy
00:08:15 --> 00:08:19 and I like logic however I also wanted to do
00:08:19 --> 00:08:22 something that had a little bit more people interaction
00:08:22 --> 00:08:25 and I thought marketing could combine those skills
00:08:25 --> 00:08:29 and then I started at Kennesaw State University
00:08:30 --> 00:08:33 And I found that some of the classes, it seemed
00:08:33 --> 00:08:36 very intuitive to me. And I guess I like a challenge
00:08:36 --> 00:08:40 and a level of complexity in my life. I always
00:08:40 --> 00:08:42 tell every boss I've ever worked for, keep me
00:08:42 --> 00:08:44 challenged and slightly confused and I'll stay
00:08:44 --> 00:08:48 here. And so I really enjoyed the accounting
00:08:48 --> 00:08:51 classes and they came naturally for me. I'd had
00:08:51 --> 00:08:54 one hourly job where I sort of did all the company,
00:08:54 --> 00:08:57 well, actually two, where they figured out my
00:08:57 --> 00:08:59 skill set and I had done payroll and bookkeeping
00:08:59 --> 00:09:02 in the past. past. So it was kind of a natural
00:09:02 --> 00:09:05 transition. But I also had some fabulous, Kennesaw
00:09:05 --> 00:09:07 State is known for in their accounting school
00:09:07 --> 00:09:11 for the quality of their professors. They care
00:09:11 --> 00:09:15 more about teaching in many ways and the students
00:09:15 --> 00:09:17 than their research, which, you know, you could
00:09:17 --> 00:09:22 argue for both. But I had some fabulous professors
00:09:22 --> 00:09:24 that just said, you're a natural at this. This
00:09:24 --> 00:09:28 is where you need to be. And I trusted. their
00:09:28 --> 00:09:31 advice. And here I am today, still friends with
00:09:31 --> 00:09:33 some of those teachers. One of my teachers is
00:09:33 --> 00:09:35 actually the head of the School of Accountancy
00:09:35 --> 00:09:37 right now. Oh, wow. That is so cool. But you're
00:09:37 --> 00:09:40 still involved with Kennesaw State. Like since
00:09:40 --> 00:09:43 you left, you stayed connected. Yes, absolutely.
00:09:43 --> 00:09:47 Absolutely. I think I find it very interesting.
00:09:48 --> 00:09:51 the interconnectivity between research, academia,
00:09:52 --> 00:09:56 and the application of how we use that knowledge
00:09:56 --> 00:09:59 and those skill sets in the real world. And Kennesaw
00:09:59 --> 00:10:02 State has a multi -billion dollar impact on the
00:10:02 --> 00:10:04 community here in Metro Atlanta. And it's very
00:10:04 --> 00:10:07 important to them and it's very important to
00:10:07 --> 00:10:09 the community. And so making sure that we are
00:10:09 --> 00:10:12 producing accounting students that the businesses
00:10:12 --> 00:10:14 find very useful and could be like you one day
00:10:14 --> 00:10:17 and be the next CFO. So it gives you the opportunity
00:10:17 --> 00:10:19 to talk. Talk about the curriculum at the university.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:22 What are we teaching them? Why are we teaching
00:10:22 --> 00:10:25 them that? What are the new graduates not have
00:10:25 --> 00:10:28 that they need to have? So, right, an interesting
00:10:28 --> 00:10:32 topic now is AI. Yes. Because how does that change
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 what they're teaching? And so I'm assuming our
00:10:35 --> 00:10:38 next board meeting will cover that. But it's
00:10:38 --> 00:10:42 just been a wonderful, wonderful connection for
00:10:42 --> 00:10:46 me. And I actually started a scholarship there.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:50 for accounting students that maybe come from
00:10:50 --> 00:10:52 a background like mine didn't have the means
00:10:52 --> 00:10:54 didn't have the coaching to get there with ease
00:10:54 --> 00:10:57 um and i'm very excited about that so we give
00:10:57 --> 00:10:58 it out every year i think it's been going for
00:10:58 --> 00:11:01 six or seven years now and then i'm also on their
00:11:01 --> 00:11:04 um athletics association board which is very
00:11:04 --> 00:11:08 interesting because the tuition students pay
00:11:08 --> 00:11:11 funds the athletics programs and so it gives
00:11:11 --> 00:11:13 you a whole new view of the university and how
00:11:13 --> 00:11:15 it works and the president chairs that board
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 so it's very very fun And then they have a center
00:11:18 --> 00:11:21 for internal audit that I'm also on that board
00:11:21 --> 00:11:25 and really gives me a lot of fun, a lot of interest.
00:11:26 --> 00:11:30 I don't have millions to hand back at this point
00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 in my life yet, but they honored me by inducting
00:11:33 --> 00:11:36 me into their business school, Hall of Fame recently,
00:11:36 --> 00:11:39 just because of all the time and effort I've
00:11:39 --> 00:11:42 done in giving back, mentoring programs. They
00:11:42 --> 00:11:44 have a women's program. I've mentored in that
00:11:44 --> 00:11:47 before as well. So I think just living with gratitude
00:11:47 --> 00:11:50 and giving back to your community helps you get
00:11:50 --> 00:11:52 these connections and make friendships. Like
00:11:52 --> 00:11:55 I think you will be now on my list. Yes, yes.
00:11:56 --> 00:11:58 love it and i love how it's it's coming like
00:11:58 --> 00:12:00 a full circle for you right with like the scholar
00:12:00 --> 00:12:03 the scholarship program you mentioned definitely
00:12:03 --> 00:12:05 on the athletics i would have never qualified
00:12:05 --> 00:12:09 i still won't qualify for anything athletic because
00:12:09 --> 00:12:12 i grew up the trebuchet would like food so oh
00:12:12 --> 00:12:17 always that way always happy um to hear that
00:12:17 --> 00:12:20 and understand the part when you said the application
00:12:20 --> 00:12:23 of what we learn in school because I feel like
00:12:23 --> 00:12:25 coming out of college I didn't feel well equipped
00:12:25 --> 00:12:29 for what was waiting for me yeah um I wasn't
00:12:29 --> 00:12:31 well equipped like and that was back then we're
00:12:31 --> 00:12:35 just gonna I'm 35 years old so back then I will
00:12:35 --> 00:12:38 come on and I wouldn't feel ready so I'm curious
00:12:38 --> 00:12:41 to hear from you like what do you think are the
00:12:41 --> 00:12:45 gaps that we that whether it's universities or
00:12:45 --> 00:12:48 employment like What are the gaps that we need
00:12:48 --> 00:12:51 to fill rather quickly to allow people to be
00:12:51 --> 00:12:54 more ready when they come out of college? Absolutely.
00:12:54 --> 00:12:57 I've always believed, and I think we talked about
00:12:57 --> 00:12:59 this a little bit in advance of this, you have
00:12:59 --> 00:13:02 to have strong soft skills. And those are the
00:13:02 --> 00:13:04 hardest things, I think, to teach people if they
00:13:04 --> 00:13:07 naturally don't have them. But you need to actually
00:13:07 --> 00:13:11 be able to speak verbally and be able to communicate
00:13:11 --> 00:13:14 effectively at every level in the organization,
00:13:14 --> 00:13:17 not just at the top. And then you have to be
00:13:17 --> 00:13:20 able to write well and make sure people can understand
00:13:20 --> 00:13:23 it. You don't want things to be misconstrued,
00:13:23 --> 00:13:26 right? In finance, we tell a story of how the
00:13:26 --> 00:13:29 business is performing or how safe it is, how
00:13:29 --> 00:13:33 the controls are working. And so I think those
00:13:33 --> 00:13:36 soft skills are very, very important. I think
00:13:36 --> 00:13:38 AI is going to change what's in the curriculum
00:13:38 --> 00:13:41 in the schools. I think AI is going to change
00:13:41 --> 00:13:45 some of how we in finance work. Right now, it
00:13:45 --> 00:13:48 appears to me that the tech companies that already
00:13:48 --> 00:13:51 have technology on their side, as well as the
00:13:51 --> 00:13:53 extremely large companies, are probably taking
00:13:53 --> 00:13:56 leapfrogs, where some of us are taking little
00:13:56 --> 00:14:00 smaller steps. But I don't know of anybody right
00:14:00 --> 00:14:02 now who's not trying to use AI in some way every
00:14:02 --> 00:14:05 day in their work that they're doing. And so
00:14:05 --> 00:14:06 for those of you who aren't, I think you should
00:14:06 --> 00:14:09 be. Until you experiment, you don't know what
00:14:09 --> 00:14:11 it can do. And I think the more you experiment,
00:14:11 --> 00:14:15 the more it learns. only gives you better answers
00:14:15 --> 00:14:20 over time. So I also have always believed we
00:14:20 --> 00:14:24 don't give accounting students enough IT types
00:14:24 --> 00:14:27 of skill sets so that you can understand the
00:14:27 --> 00:14:29 systems, right? You know, we used to talk for
00:14:29 --> 00:14:32 the last 15 years about everything going digital,
00:14:32 --> 00:14:35 right? That was every white paper you read was
00:14:35 --> 00:14:37 about the digital transformation and the digital
00:14:37 --> 00:14:40 journey. So if you don't understand all of that,
00:14:40 --> 00:14:42 it's very hard to do your job because everything
00:14:42 --> 00:14:45 is interconnected now. If it's not interconnected
00:14:45 --> 00:14:48 now, we have a manual control or a manual process
00:14:48 --> 00:14:52 that creates more risk of human error. And then
00:14:52 --> 00:14:54 AI is going to be very tricky with what I do
00:14:54 --> 00:14:57 as an internal auditor. And even for the external
00:14:57 --> 00:15:00 auditors, how do we prove to the SEC, the PCOB,
00:15:00 --> 00:15:04 that AI was tested well enough and the human
00:15:04 --> 00:15:06 looking at it actually had the requisite skills
00:15:06 --> 00:15:09 to make sure it gave the right. answer. So there's
00:15:09 --> 00:15:10 lots of things I think what we have in front
00:15:10 --> 00:15:14 of us that are going to change. I believe people
00:15:14 --> 00:15:18 will always be involved. I don't think you can,
00:15:18 --> 00:15:20 especially in our career lines, I don't think
00:15:20 --> 00:15:23 you can trust that AI will give the right answer.
00:15:23 --> 00:15:26 You have to have the skill set above it. So I
00:15:26 --> 00:15:29 think coming forward for academia as well as
00:15:29 --> 00:15:31 for us in business is how do we bring people
00:15:31 --> 00:15:34 up with the level of experience to look at the
00:15:34 --> 00:15:36 answer that AI has given them and know that it's
00:15:36 --> 00:15:39 right or have the detailed skills like you've
00:15:39 --> 00:15:42 seen them, CFOs and CEOs that can look at a man.
00:15:42 --> 00:15:44 management report and say, this has to be wrong.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:47 And you see other people in the room go, I don't
00:15:47 --> 00:15:49 understand. How did you pick that up so quick?
00:15:49 --> 00:15:51 It's because of those years of understanding
00:15:51 --> 00:15:55 the business. But I mean, I think this wasn't
00:15:55 --> 00:15:57 sort of built into your question, but I encourage
00:15:57 --> 00:16:02 everybody, be naturally curious. If you want
00:16:02 --> 00:16:04 to learn about that business and understand how
00:16:04 --> 00:16:06 it all works, you will be a better employee.
00:16:07 --> 00:16:10 You'll do better in finance. Even if you're just
00:16:10 --> 00:16:13 closing the books, that knowledge of the business,
00:16:13 --> 00:16:15 you will catch things. And in my line of work,
00:16:15 --> 00:16:17 what I always say to all the finance people within
00:16:17 --> 00:16:20 the organization is you're the final stop for
00:16:20 --> 00:16:22 making sure the financial statements are accurate
00:16:22 --> 00:16:25 and complete and tell the truth story and are
00:16:25 --> 00:16:29 transparent. And so raise your hand. Don't be
00:16:29 --> 00:16:33 shy. And I think finance people are the people
00:16:33 --> 00:16:34 who are going to keep the shareholders safe.
00:16:35 --> 00:16:38 Yes, I agree. And I like how you say our line
00:16:38 --> 00:16:41 of work, because I feel like within our line
00:16:41 --> 00:16:44 of work, we understand each other. And then you
00:16:44 --> 00:16:46 go out and you're like your CPA, you do taxes,
00:16:46 --> 00:16:49 like people really don't understand the breadth
00:16:49 --> 00:16:51 of what it is that we do. So I'm curious to hear
00:16:51 --> 00:16:53 when people hear you a chief audit officer, like
00:16:53 --> 00:16:57 what do they think you do versus what you actually
00:16:57 --> 00:17:02 do? My daughter's 24. My husband's my age. And
00:17:02 --> 00:17:04 I think only in the last five to 10 years have
00:17:04 --> 00:17:07 they learned what they think I do. You're right.
00:17:07 --> 00:17:09 It is a hard job to understand. You can't say
00:17:09 --> 00:17:11 I'm here to protect the shareholders, right?
00:17:11 --> 00:17:16 That's a very abstract comment. So in explaining
00:17:16 --> 00:17:19 it, sometimes people look a little... Bored,
00:17:19 --> 00:17:22 I'm going to be honest. But it, for me, has been
00:17:22 --> 00:17:26 a very, very exciting career. Because I don't
00:17:26 --> 00:17:29 audit with an enforcement mindset. I believe
00:17:29 --> 00:17:32 auditing is best when you're the business partner
00:17:32 --> 00:17:35 to the CFO, business partner to the chief accounting
00:17:35 --> 00:17:38 officer. They're going to tell you stuff, right?
00:17:38 --> 00:17:40 If you are their friend and their trusted advisor
00:17:40 --> 00:17:43 and they know that you're not going to do anything
00:17:43 --> 00:17:46 unexpected with the information they share with
00:17:46 --> 00:17:48 you, they are going to tell you about their problems,
00:17:48 --> 00:17:51 and then they will start coming to you. Really,
00:17:51 --> 00:17:53 internal audit, the way I view it, is an internal
00:17:53 --> 00:17:56 service to the organization as well as that back
00:17:56 --> 00:17:59 third line to protect all the shareholders who
00:17:59 --> 00:18:02 rely on those financial statements. But internally,
00:18:02 --> 00:18:06 we do advisory services as well. And the only
00:18:06 --> 00:18:09 way we get to do those fun projects is because
00:18:09 --> 00:18:12 they actually respect us and we work with them
00:18:12 --> 00:18:14 at all times. So that's why those soft skills,
00:18:14 --> 00:18:17 we're circling back there, are so important.
00:18:17 --> 00:18:20 I do not hire an internal auditor who can't have
00:18:20 --> 00:18:23 good verbal communication skills. And be able
00:18:23 --> 00:18:25 to transition those verbal skills between an
00:18:25 --> 00:18:29 hourly worker on a plant floor and sitting in
00:18:29 --> 00:18:32 front of the CFO. And that's early on. So I look
00:18:32 --> 00:18:36 for that when I hire them. And actually, my hope
00:18:36 --> 00:18:37 is that then they could go into the business
00:18:37 --> 00:18:40 and actually do business roles because they also
00:18:40 --> 00:18:43 have those soft skills. And I like how you said
00:18:43 --> 00:18:48 you don't use an enforcement mindset as opposed
00:18:48 --> 00:18:51 to a business partnering mindset. Can you give
00:18:51 --> 00:18:53 us an example of what you would have done differently
00:18:53 --> 00:18:56 if you were going as an enforcer, right? There's
00:18:56 --> 00:18:59 a situation I go in with my enforcement hat versus
00:18:59 --> 00:19:02 I go in the same situation but with a business
00:19:02 --> 00:19:06 partner hat. Yeah, I have worked once in an audit
00:19:06 --> 00:19:08 shop that was a little bit more of an enforcement
00:19:08 --> 00:19:10 mindset, and that was when I changed my mind
00:19:10 --> 00:19:13 about how it should be done. And what happens
00:19:13 --> 00:19:16 is it feels to the organization like we're doing
00:19:16 --> 00:19:19 something to them. It feels like we're forcing
00:19:19 --> 00:19:23 something on them. And then when you interview
00:19:23 --> 00:19:25 them, a lot of what we do is verbal, to be honest.
00:19:25 --> 00:19:31 We back it up with real data, but they will explain
00:19:31 --> 00:19:33 more. It will help you understand more, and you
00:19:33 --> 00:19:35 will then become a better auditor because they're
00:19:35 --> 00:19:37 willing to explain and give you the details.
00:19:37 --> 00:19:40 The other way you see it, so in that example,
00:19:40 --> 00:19:45 done well, the business finance head will call
00:19:45 --> 00:19:49 me and say, hey, I think I'd like you to go look
00:19:49 --> 00:19:53 at the inventory at XYZ location. I need your
00:19:53 --> 00:19:56 help. And so that doesn't happen at every audit
00:19:56 --> 00:20:00 shop, and it happens to us regularly. We add
00:20:00 --> 00:20:02 projects all the time that weren't anticipated.
00:20:03 --> 00:20:05 Our audit committee and board love it because
00:20:05 --> 00:20:08 then they know we have an open exchange of information
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11 with management. We still have to do our Sarbanes
00:20:11 --> 00:20:13 -Oxley testing and make sure every control is
00:20:13 --> 00:20:17 working and provide management's opinion on how
00:20:17 --> 00:20:21 well their controls are performing. I work a
00:20:21 --> 00:20:25 lot with the external auditors, but you can do
00:20:25 --> 00:20:29 all of that. in a very amenable way where everybody's
00:20:29 --> 00:20:31 getting along and everybody trusts each other
00:20:31 --> 00:20:34 and building that trust is so important right
00:20:34 --> 00:20:36 because now i feel like everybody in the finance
00:20:36 --> 00:20:39 organization We want them to be business partner.
00:20:39 --> 00:20:41 We want everybody to be at that business partner
00:20:41 --> 00:20:44 because when you go to school, you kind of taught
00:20:44 --> 00:20:47 the enforcement mindset of audit, like give me
00:20:47 --> 00:20:49 this paper, this paper, this paper. Let me check
00:20:49 --> 00:20:51 that all three matches are matching a certain
00:20:51 --> 00:20:55 way or who reviewed it. Like you tend to think
00:20:55 --> 00:20:58 that's how it should be, right? But I like how
00:20:58 --> 00:21:01 you said you change your mind and really use
00:21:01 --> 00:21:03 that business partner. And they're curious to
00:21:03 --> 00:21:06 see how you help. the rest of your team embrace
00:21:06 --> 00:21:10 that mindset. Yeah, I mean, three of the audit
00:21:10 --> 00:21:13 shops that I've led, I built. So it was easier
00:21:13 --> 00:21:17 in that situation to hire for the skills that
00:21:17 --> 00:21:20 we and the company deem appropriate. I'm big
00:21:20 --> 00:21:22 on, and you've probably heard this from other
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 people you've spoken with or may believe it yourself,
00:21:25 --> 00:21:29 but I am big on culture fit. I always tell people
00:21:29 --> 00:21:32 when I'm interviewing them. This is a fit discussion.
00:21:32 --> 00:21:35 You need to ask me questions and make sure you're
00:21:35 --> 00:21:37 comfortable working with and around me and make
00:21:37 --> 00:21:40 sure you like our company and our culture. Because
00:21:40 --> 00:21:42 if you're not happy, you're going to leave. And
00:21:42 --> 00:21:44 we want somebody who wants to be here and stay
00:21:44 --> 00:21:47 here and is excited about the role and excited
00:21:47 --> 00:21:50 about what we do as a company. And I'm going
00:21:50 --> 00:21:52 to interview you for the same things. I think
00:21:52 --> 00:21:55 fit is really important. And that means everything
00:21:55 --> 00:21:58 from culture to aptitude to, you know, the people
00:21:58 --> 00:22:04 you're working with. This last audit shop I've
00:22:04 --> 00:22:07 built, it's been miraculous. They are all best
00:22:07 --> 00:22:11 friends. And it is so nice to see that on the
00:22:11 --> 00:22:13 unfortunate side, that means they're a little
00:22:13 --> 00:22:15 less eager to go off and work in the business
00:22:15 --> 00:22:17 roles because they really enjoy working together.
00:22:17 --> 00:22:20 But we've just somehow created this hardworking,
00:22:20 --> 00:22:26 focused, kind. culture where we each care about
00:22:26 --> 00:22:28 each other and know each other very well. So
00:22:28 --> 00:22:31 proud of them all. So proud of them. Good for
00:22:31 --> 00:22:34 you. And very inspiring, too, and says a lot
00:22:34 --> 00:22:37 about you as a leader. Now, being in your line
00:22:37 --> 00:22:40 of business, particularly, you have to tell things
00:22:40 --> 00:22:42 people don't want to hear. Like, that's a part
00:22:42 --> 00:22:45 of audit, whether external or internal, that
00:22:45 --> 00:22:48 we don't always talk about. Like, how do you...
00:22:48 --> 00:22:52 do that like how are you able to say stop doing
00:22:52 --> 00:22:55 this to somebody that's like a big head because
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 you may be hurting the company in this way or
00:22:58 --> 00:23:00 that way like what helps you build that courage
00:23:00 --> 00:23:04 and keep that relationship afterward I call it
00:23:04 --> 00:23:08 political or organizational savvy okay at the
00:23:08 --> 00:23:12 top of the the pile I guess and what that means
00:23:12 --> 00:23:16 to me is you have to understand who all the players
00:23:16 --> 00:23:19 are what motivates them, who the key influencers
00:23:19 --> 00:23:22 are in the organization. And you have to be able
00:23:22 --> 00:23:24 to know that there are going to be times you
00:23:24 --> 00:23:26 take risk, to your point about your question,
00:23:26 --> 00:23:29 but that's what your job entails. That's what
00:23:29 --> 00:23:31 I'm accountable and responsible for working for
00:23:31 --> 00:23:34 a public company is to call the audit committee
00:23:34 --> 00:23:35 chair when I need to call the audit committee
00:23:35 --> 00:23:39 chair. I often set expectations with the CFOs
00:23:39 --> 00:23:42 that I've worked with of no surprises unless
00:23:42 --> 00:23:46 I have to, right? Meaning... almost every time
00:23:46 --> 00:23:48 i let the cfo know what i'm going to talk to
00:23:48 --> 00:23:50 the audit committee chair about before i do it
00:23:50 --> 00:23:54 or as i'm doing it there have been times i can't
00:23:54 --> 00:23:58 and those are tough conversations but to me this
00:23:58 --> 00:24:00 job requires high integrity i think all finance
00:24:00 --> 00:24:04 jobs do but i think this job requires the kind
00:24:04 --> 00:24:06 of integrity where you will put your job on the
00:24:06 --> 00:24:09 line to do the right thing and say the right
00:24:09 --> 00:24:11 thing to the right people but that's where the
00:24:11 --> 00:24:14 savvy of the organizational politics can kind
00:24:14 --> 00:24:17 of come in. If you've built these trusted relationships
00:24:17 --> 00:24:19 and business partnerships that I was talking
00:24:19 --> 00:24:22 about earlier, they know you're not doing it
00:24:22 --> 00:24:24 because you want to be mean or vindictive. They
00:24:24 --> 00:24:27 know that you're doing it because it's your job.
00:24:27 --> 00:24:29 And at the end of the day, they respect you for
00:24:29 --> 00:24:32 that. I've had board chairs call me and ask me
00:24:32 --> 00:24:35 to investigate high -ranking people and keep
00:24:35 --> 00:24:37 it secret, not even tell the general counsel.
00:24:38 --> 00:24:41 Right. It's a job. I always tell my bosses, it's
00:24:41 --> 00:24:44 a lonely job unless you have a lot of chief audit
00:24:44 --> 00:24:46 executive friends, because there's times where
00:24:46 --> 00:24:49 you just want to call somebody and say. What
00:24:49 --> 00:24:51 are you doing about this? And that gives you
00:24:51 --> 00:24:54 that glorious, and I will tell you, in Atlanta,
00:24:54 --> 00:24:58 Metro Atlanta, it is a large, large, sprawling
00:24:58 --> 00:25:01 city. But when it comes to the finance community,
00:25:01 --> 00:25:03 we are all so supportive of each other. And it's
00:25:03 --> 00:25:05 the same way for the chief audit executives here.
00:25:05 --> 00:25:08 We have enough large public companies that we
00:25:08 --> 00:25:12 can really, we have a, I volunteer time at our
00:25:12 --> 00:25:16 Institute of Internal Auditors. local chapter
00:25:16 --> 00:25:18 here in Atlanta. It's a very active chapter.
00:25:18 --> 00:25:21 We have some between 2 to 3 members.
00:25:22 --> 00:25:25 We provide 39 events throughout the year to train
00:25:25 --> 00:25:28 the auditors and get them together and have them
00:25:28 --> 00:25:31 network together. So we've also tried to set
00:25:31 --> 00:25:33 up a community where that happens. But I have
00:25:33 --> 00:25:36 a Rolodex of chief audit executives that live
00:25:36 --> 00:25:39 right here in the community. I've also found
00:25:39 --> 00:25:42 those Round tables, I'm sure you found that as
00:25:42 --> 00:25:44 a CFO, those round tables that you belong to
00:25:44 --> 00:25:47 in your career that have peer jobs that do the
00:25:47 --> 00:25:50 same thing, they are limitless when things are
00:25:50 --> 00:25:53 changing or there's disruption. We all use consultants
00:25:53 --> 00:25:56 in finance, and I find making them your friend,
00:25:56 --> 00:25:59 not just your consultant, especially the lead
00:25:59 --> 00:26:02 partner, is very helpful because you can have
00:26:02 --> 00:26:05 great knowledge transference. You can actually
00:26:05 --> 00:26:08 share information both ways. The more transparent
00:26:08 --> 00:26:10 I am with them, I find the more they'll share
00:26:10 --> 00:26:13 information where I'm not even paying for it,
00:26:13 --> 00:26:16 right? The great consultants come in and say,
00:26:16 --> 00:26:17 well, what are the problems you're having today
00:26:17 --> 00:26:20 and how do I help instead of selling? So I usually
00:26:20 --> 00:26:23 tell them that right off when I meet them. But
00:26:23 --> 00:26:26 yeah, I think all of that's important. And when
00:26:26 --> 00:26:31 we do argue and argues. probably the word they
00:26:31 --> 00:26:34 feel sometimes with a client. I call them customers,
00:26:34 --> 00:26:37 actually. I don't know if my shareholders like
00:26:37 --> 00:26:40 that, but I like it because what it means is
00:26:40 --> 00:26:42 we can do this together. We can solve the problems
00:26:42 --> 00:26:46 together. That you have to say, no, this finding
00:26:46 --> 00:26:49 will stand and it is a high risk. And the business
00:26:49 --> 00:26:52 is trying to tell me it's not a high risk. But
00:26:52 --> 00:26:54 that's where that trusted partnership again shows
00:26:54 --> 00:26:58 up, where there is debate. we can faithfully
00:26:58 --> 00:27:01 discuss about what's best for the company and
00:27:01 --> 00:27:03 alignment. That's another time when you can use
00:27:03 --> 00:27:06 your third -party consultant. So if we're talking
00:27:06 --> 00:27:08 about something very technical and I feel like
00:27:08 --> 00:27:11 I need backup, I will sort of say, can you just
00:27:11 --> 00:27:15 come to this meeting with me and speak up and
00:27:15 --> 00:27:17 give them other facts about other companies so
00:27:17 --> 00:27:19 they get a real -life benchmark in the discussion
00:27:19 --> 00:27:23 to help them understand. But we also, in internal
00:27:23 --> 00:27:25 audit, you can't raise every finding and can't
00:27:25 --> 00:27:27 raise every finding as if it's, you know, the
00:27:27 --> 00:27:30 ceiling's broken and we're being drowned and
00:27:30 --> 00:27:33 they're all high and critical. And it's not as
00:27:33 --> 00:27:35 bright a line as you would think in internal
00:27:35 --> 00:27:38 audit for some of our operational audits. So
00:27:38 --> 00:27:42 to me, you know, this saying I sometimes say
00:27:42 --> 00:27:44 to people is you can win the war, but you'll
00:27:44 --> 00:27:47 lose the battle. If I'm trying to audit a whole
00:27:47 --> 00:27:51 function on a whole variety of topics and I'm
00:27:51 --> 00:27:54 willing to, you know, fight for a long time over
00:27:54 --> 00:27:57 two or three findings when I audit them all year
00:27:57 --> 00:28:01 round, every year, it's not going to be a productive
00:28:01 --> 00:28:03 relationship. And so we have to figure out where's
00:28:03 --> 00:28:05 the middle ground and how come, why don't we
00:28:05 --> 00:28:09 agree on the risk? The other thing I use, Von
00:28:09 --> 00:28:12 Mises is a philosopher, and I've used this, I
00:28:12 --> 00:28:17 simplify what he says in today's language. But
00:28:17 --> 00:28:19 when people don't want to change, and I use this
00:28:19 --> 00:28:22 in internal audit all the time, when people don't
00:28:22 --> 00:28:24 want to change, there's usually three reasons.
00:28:24 --> 00:28:28 Number one, They aren't uncomfortable with the
00:28:28 --> 00:28:31 current situation. Number two, they don't see
00:28:31 --> 00:28:33 a path to a future state. And number three, they
00:28:33 --> 00:28:37 don't have a future state in mind. And so when
00:28:37 --> 00:28:39 we have challenges like that, I use that model
00:28:39 --> 00:28:43 to figure out why are they pushing back? Maybe
00:28:43 --> 00:28:45 they don't think anything's wrong today. Or maybe
00:28:45 --> 00:28:47 they do agree, but they don't see a way because
00:28:47 --> 00:28:49 they don't have the money. the right talent in
00:28:49 --> 00:28:52 the organization to actually cause the change
00:28:52 --> 00:28:55 to occur, or they don't even see what the final
00:28:55 --> 00:28:58 vision could be. And it's usually more than one
00:28:58 --> 00:29:00 of them. It's usually two with one being primary.
00:29:00 --> 00:29:03 And once I figure out what that is, I can actually
00:29:03 --> 00:29:09 speak much more caring. and kind with my audit
00:29:09 --> 00:29:12 customer to figure out what is the solution and
00:29:12 --> 00:29:13 how do we get there. The other thing I say all
00:29:13 --> 00:29:15 the time is we are all smart people. That's how
00:29:15 --> 00:29:18 we got here. I know we can find a solution for
00:29:18 --> 00:29:20 this. So let's just work on it together. Nice,
00:29:20 --> 00:29:23 nice. And I like how you said, so two things
00:29:23 --> 00:29:25 that you said that really resonated with me is
00:29:25 --> 00:29:29 one, having your network. of, you know, other
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31 chief audit officers. I do have my, I call them
00:29:31 --> 00:29:34 my CFO friends as well because he helps. Because
00:29:34 --> 00:29:35 it is lonely because there's only usually one
00:29:35 --> 00:29:39 you in the whole C -suite inside your organization.
00:29:39 --> 00:29:42 The other thing was a consultant. It's crazy
00:29:42 --> 00:29:45 how, and it reminds me even, you know, family
00:29:45 --> 00:29:48 -wise, right? You can say the same thing. Somebody
00:29:48 --> 00:29:50 else say the same thing to your kids and they
00:29:50 --> 00:29:53 listen to the other person. I feel sometimes
00:29:53 --> 00:29:57 that's how consultants are. It helps bring perspective
00:29:57 --> 00:30:00 so it's not just you. So that's a great, great
00:30:00 --> 00:30:04 way to use them. Yeah, absolutely. And I hire
00:30:04 --> 00:30:07 my consultants with the same thing in mind as
00:30:07 --> 00:30:12 with employees and partners is are they a culture
00:30:12 --> 00:30:15 fit? Are they going to dig a hole and leave a
00:30:15 --> 00:30:17 hole? Are they going to dig a hole and then help
00:30:17 --> 00:30:19 us work on the hole in a kind -spirited way,
00:30:20 --> 00:30:23 right? Yes. I use a multitude of firms, and the
00:30:23 --> 00:30:25 reason I do that, it's really about the people.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:28 This is an internal service to the organization
00:30:28 --> 00:30:31 and an external service to the external auditors
00:30:31 --> 00:30:34 and the shareholders. And if I've got the right
00:30:34 --> 00:30:36 people, we can make all of this work. Having
00:30:36 --> 00:30:39 the right people and how you hire them. Now,
00:30:39 --> 00:30:41 I wanted to take a break here because going back
00:30:41 --> 00:30:43 to the work you do at Kennesaw State, right?
00:30:43 --> 00:30:47 Because when we come through the ranks, like
00:30:47 --> 00:30:50 when we go through school, We think that what
00:30:50 --> 00:30:52 will help us at some point is what we learn,
00:30:52 --> 00:30:54 like all the technical aspects. But when you
00:30:54 --> 00:30:56 were describing how you hire people, you mentioned
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 soft skills, you mentioned your culture. These
00:30:59 --> 00:31:02 are totally different, especially as you get
00:31:02 --> 00:31:05 higher and higher in your career. So what would
00:31:05 --> 00:31:08 you advise somebody that's just starting in their
00:31:08 --> 00:31:12 career to think about as they progress? Like
00:31:12 --> 00:31:14 what are the things that you... probably learned
00:31:14 --> 00:31:16 the hard way like most of us did, to help them
00:31:16 --> 00:31:18 bridge that gap. Because yes, your technical
00:31:18 --> 00:31:20 skills will be the strongest thing on your resume
00:31:20 --> 00:31:22 and will help you when you start your career.
00:31:22 --> 00:31:25 But then as you get to the VP role and C -suite
00:31:25 --> 00:31:29 role, it's completely different. Yeah. I always
00:31:29 --> 00:31:31 say the technical skills will get you there,
00:31:31 --> 00:31:34 but the soft skills will get you where you want
00:31:34 --> 00:31:38 to be. That's my mantra that I tell people and
00:31:38 --> 00:31:40 coach people with all the time. You do have to
00:31:40 --> 00:31:43 have the technical foundation to have the respect
00:31:43 --> 00:31:47 to be a partner. But the soft skills and how
00:31:47 --> 00:31:52 you do that is much more important as you start
00:31:52 --> 00:31:55 to choose your path or pivot as you go along.
00:31:56 --> 00:31:59 So I think what you're saying is exactly spot
00:31:59 --> 00:32:03 on. I think I... figured that out on my own,
00:32:03 --> 00:32:06 unfortunately. I wish I'd had a few more sponsors
00:32:06 --> 00:32:09 throughout my career and life. I think I have
00:32:09 --> 00:32:13 now, but early on because I was new to the country,
00:32:14 --> 00:32:19 new to a business world, right? So I had to figure
00:32:19 --> 00:32:21 that one out on my own. It was like, boy, I work
00:32:21 --> 00:32:24 really hard. I'm the one in the office the longest,
00:32:24 --> 00:32:26 especially while I was at PricewaterhouseCoopers.
00:32:27 --> 00:32:30 And I'm working really hard, but not always being
00:32:30 --> 00:32:34 noticed for what I'm doing. And I like to be
00:32:34 --> 00:32:38 humble as well. So it's hard. It was hard for
00:32:38 --> 00:32:42 me to learn to say, look at what I did, right?
00:32:42 --> 00:32:44 I would just do the work and expect people to
00:32:44 --> 00:32:47 notice. And it's not that you have to tell them.
00:32:47 --> 00:32:49 It's sort of a change to being able to articulate
00:32:49 --> 00:32:53 the value you bring more than what you did. And
00:32:53 --> 00:32:57 you do have to do that. And I think it's probably
00:32:57 --> 00:33:04 more so for women that we have to do it. I think
00:33:04 --> 00:33:08 anyone can have imposter syndrome. I just think
00:33:08 --> 00:33:10 most of the women I know have some level of imposter
00:33:10 --> 00:33:14 syndrome because of the generation we came from,
00:33:14 --> 00:33:17 right? My mother was a homemaker. So certainly
00:33:17 --> 00:33:20 this is an all new ground that I've experienced.
00:33:20 --> 00:33:24 And I think I tell people, you know, it's okay
00:33:24 --> 00:33:26 not to know things, but also believe in yourself
00:33:26 --> 00:33:29 and be confident in what you do and the skills
00:33:29 --> 00:33:32 you have. But that is that technical basis as
00:33:32 --> 00:33:35 well, right? And it's only later on that I learned
00:33:35 --> 00:33:38 it's all that communication. And you talked about
00:33:38 --> 00:33:40 the network. There's some chief audit executives.
00:33:40 --> 00:33:42 I hug them when I see them. This is not a, you
00:33:42 --> 00:33:45 know, nice to meet you, shake your hand relationship.
00:33:46 --> 00:33:49 And I now made it a thing to figure out who I'm
00:33:49 --> 00:33:52 going to add to my hug federation this year.
00:33:52 --> 00:33:54 But there are some that I can consider absolutely
00:33:54 --> 00:33:58 dear friends. I've gone to events with and really
00:33:58 --> 00:34:02 enjoyed. There is a chief audit executive I belong
00:34:02 --> 00:34:05 to that's all Fortune 500 women across the nation,
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 about 60 large. You have to be Fortune 500, 60
00:34:09 --> 00:34:13 large public companies. And at first, when they
00:34:13 --> 00:34:16 asked me to join 10, 15 years ago, I'm like,
00:34:16 --> 00:34:19 why? The topics we were discussing were the same
00:34:19 --> 00:34:22 as any other roundtable I belong to. But what
00:34:22 --> 00:34:25 I found is the women would actually share documents.
00:34:26 --> 00:34:30 They'd share deep inside thoughts. they would
00:34:30 --> 00:34:33 really try to help lift you up and have us all
00:34:33 --> 00:34:39 grow together. 30, 25 years ago in this industry,
00:34:39 --> 00:34:42 it wasn't like that. I am so proud of that change.
00:34:43 --> 00:34:45 It used to be there was only really one woman
00:34:45 --> 00:34:50 sort of nearing the top. And so sometimes I saw
00:34:50 --> 00:34:52 behaviors where we weren't nice to each other.
00:34:52 --> 00:34:56 And we've pivoted that. It's really, I think
00:34:56 --> 00:34:57 there's enough room for all of us. And if we
00:34:57 --> 00:35:00 help each other, we can get there. And what's
00:35:00 --> 00:35:04 interesting is just the way this group of 60
00:35:04 --> 00:35:07 women share. I can have my CFO ask me a question.
00:35:08 --> 00:35:11 I generally, after all these years, know an answer.
00:35:11 --> 00:35:13 But I'm like, let me go get a real -time answer.
00:35:13 --> 00:35:16 I can email those 60 chief audit executives,
00:35:16 --> 00:35:21 and I've got 20 responses by 5 p .m. Nice. Like,
00:35:21 --> 00:35:25 it's amazing. That's the one roundtable where
00:35:25 --> 00:35:27 I get that response. So I can literally call
00:35:27 --> 00:35:30 him that night and say, here's the answer from
00:35:30 --> 00:35:34 20 public companies real time today. That is
00:35:34 --> 00:35:38 an amazing network. And it's amazing to see what
00:35:38 --> 00:35:40 people can do when we work together and pull
00:35:40 --> 00:35:43 together. And we don't have to share industry
00:35:43 --> 00:35:46 knowledge or we don't even have to share. The
00:35:46 --> 00:35:48 things we're not supposed to share from an antitrust
00:35:48 --> 00:35:50 standpoint, we can share sort of our technical
00:35:50 --> 00:35:53 things, right? And how we get things done. So
00:35:53 --> 00:35:57 it is. That's the other thing I learned in my
00:35:57 --> 00:36:00 career. Because of my background, people were
00:36:00 --> 00:36:02 saying, I remember hearing it in college, too.
00:36:02 --> 00:36:03 You have to network. You have to network. I'm
00:36:03 --> 00:36:06 like, what is networking? And how do I unlock
00:36:06 --> 00:36:10 this box? Where's the key? And I never, ever
00:36:10 --> 00:36:14 understood what it was. And then one day my husband
00:36:14 --> 00:36:16 is very charismatic. And one day he said to me,
00:36:16 --> 00:36:19 I just have so much fun connecting people. When
00:36:19 --> 00:36:21 I meet somebody and they have a need and I find
00:36:21 --> 00:36:22 somebody else who has the need and I'm like,
00:36:22 --> 00:36:27 oh, I'm just supposed to find people with needs
00:36:27 --> 00:36:31 and connect them. That I can do. And he didn't
00:36:31 --> 00:36:33 say that to try and help me. It was just one
00:36:33 --> 00:36:35 of those moments where you have this beautiful
00:36:35 --> 00:36:40 realization. An aha moment. Yeah, aha moment.
00:36:41 --> 00:36:45 used that ever since with other people. And it's
00:36:45 --> 00:36:48 really like that. I used to think, well, you
00:36:48 --> 00:36:50 mean I'm supposed to go to somebody and ask them
00:36:50 --> 00:36:51 for something? Why are they going to help me?
00:36:52 --> 00:36:54 And what I've discovered, if you just talk to
00:36:54 --> 00:36:57 people, you'll find common ground. And then you
00:36:57 --> 00:37:00 find common needs. And then you share. And it's
00:37:00 --> 00:37:03 really remarkable. And it makes you not feel
00:37:03 --> 00:37:06 alone in that CFO role. Yes. And I love how you
00:37:06 --> 00:37:09 talked about having that support group, right?
00:37:09 --> 00:37:12 Because First, when I asked you initially the
00:37:12 --> 00:37:14 question and you were going over, yeah, first,
00:37:15 --> 00:37:18 be able to articulate your value. That one is
00:37:18 --> 00:37:21 very hard to do because I'm originally from Ivory
00:37:21 --> 00:37:24 Coast, right? And it's, you know, being humble.
00:37:24 --> 00:37:27 You don't brag, brag, brag, unless it's money.
00:37:27 --> 00:37:30 Yeah, we're crazy about that. But then you come
00:37:30 --> 00:37:33 here and it's different. You have to learn that.
00:37:33 --> 00:37:35 And then you have to have a network because you
00:37:35 --> 00:37:37 realize that a lot of the opportunities are just
00:37:37 --> 00:37:40 getting the answers. you're not going to have
00:37:40 --> 00:37:43 all the answers. That was one thing, too, because
00:37:43 --> 00:37:47 a lot of people were like, oh, it will probably
00:37:47 --> 00:37:49 take me 10, 20 years to get there. And I'm like,
00:37:49 --> 00:37:52 I don't know anybody who got into their seat
00:37:52 --> 00:37:56 and they knew all the answers on day one. No
00:37:56 --> 00:37:58 one ever will know all the answers. Yes. Right.
00:37:58 --> 00:38:00 It's one of the things colleges are dealing with
00:38:00 --> 00:38:02 right now is there's more information than you
00:38:02 --> 00:38:05 can teach in four years. And now you've got AI
00:38:05 --> 00:38:08 and all these other things. So it's it's about
00:38:08 --> 00:38:11 being resourceful now. Where do you find all
00:38:11 --> 00:38:12 the answers? And then having that foundation
00:38:12 --> 00:38:14 we were talking about earlier, that foundation
00:38:14 --> 00:38:18 matters in our industry of finance. Yeah. So
00:38:18 --> 00:38:21 I'm curious to hear other things in that journey,
00:38:21 --> 00:38:23 because I'm originally from Ivory Coast. Like
00:38:23 --> 00:38:25 what was that transition for you like coming
00:38:25 --> 00:38:28 from Canada, the US? I know it's. shorter distance
00:38:28 --> 00:38:31 but I'm pretty sure you probably have some things
00:38:31 --> 00:38:33 like I cut you by surprise and were like oh I
00:38:33 --> 00:38:36 did not expect this absolutely yeah I think people
00:38:36 --> 00:38:39 think because it's Canada and we're the neighbor
00:38:39 --> 00:38:43 yes oh it's so easy it was nothing it was absolutely
00:38:43 --> 00:38:47 today I'm hoping today it would be easier but
00:38:47 --> 00:38:51 when I moved across the border I needed some
00:38:51 --> 00:38:54 thread to mend something and I'm Driving around,
00:38:55 --> 00:38:58 nobody to ask. My husband was an Air Force reservist.
00:38:58 --> 00:39:01 He was overseas serving at the time. And I'm
00:39:01 --> 00:39:06 like. No cell phones. Where do I find thread?
00:39:07 --> 00:39:09 You know, and I'm running around. I go, what's
00:39:09 --> 00:39:11 Target? Let's go into the Target store and see
00:39:11 --> 00:39:14 what's there. I'm like, how could this huge department
00:39:14 --> 00:39:16 store exist and not have thread? And then I found
00:39:16 --> 00:39:18 a little end island. But it was a very limited.
00:39:18 --> 00:39:20 And I'm like, there's got to be thread in this
00:39:20 --> 00:39:23 country. I know that's a silly little story.
00:39:23 --> 00:39:26 But that's that moment where I suddenly felt
00:39:26 --> 00:39:30 alone, kind of. Really, really alone. So then
00:39:30 --> 00:39:33 I started to try to find people who liked things
00:39:33 --> 00:39:35 that I liked from where I was, right? Meeting.
00:39:36 --> 00:39:38 But certainly once I started working, once I
00:39:38 --> 00:39:40 had my green card, that made it so much easier
00:39:40 --> 00:39:42 because you then already have some people you
00:39:42 --> 00:39:45 can talk to and know. But there are other, you
00:39:45 --> 00:39:48 know, people would make fun of my speaking. You
00:39:48 --> 00:39:51 probably don't hear it anymore about out. And
00:39:51 --> 00:39:53 even my daughter used to tease me because I have
00:39:53 --> 00:39:55 a mom. And she'd say, she would laugh at me and
00:39:55 --> 00:39:58 say, do you spell that M -U -M? And I'm like,
00:39:58 --> 00:40:01 no, I spell it M -O -M. So since she's first
00:40:01 --> 00:40:04 born abroad, I went and got her Canadian passport.
00:40:04 --> 00:40:08 So she can't make fun of me anymore. But yeah,
00:40:08 --> 00:40:10 I think now my family up there thinks I sound
00:40:10 --> 00:40:13 Southern now. So apparently Atlanta's had an
00:40:13 --> 00:40:17 impact on me after all three decades. But yeah,
00:40:17 --> 00:40:22 I think, I don't say y 'all, but I don't say
00:40:22 --> 00:40:25 reckon. But I think it's just the how I'm speaking
00:40:25 --> 00:40:28 and the rate of speaking and the more musicality.
00:40:28 --> 00:40:31 Canadians, we go up at the end. So when we ask
00:40:31 --> 00:40:34 you a question, it's like, how are you? And a
00:40:34 --> 00:40:36 lot of Americans miss that, and I'm waiting for
00:40:36 --> 00:40:40 the answer. So there's little nuances like that.
00:40:40 --> 00:40:42 You don't even think about washroom versus bathroom,
00:40:43 --> 00:40:48 toilet in Europe, right? And sometimes at a restaurant
00:40:48 --> 00:40:50 the first few years, I had asked for the wrong
00:40:50 --> 00:40:54 thing, and they go. What's that? Oh, gosh. Talking
00:40:54 --> 00:40:58 about restaurants. So my story there is so I
00:40:58 --> 00:41:01 when I came here, we went to the movie theater
00:41:01 --> 00:41:04 the first time with a group of international
00:41:04 --> 00:41:07 students. And we went to the movie theater. We
00:41:07 --> 00:41:09 got we wanted to do like in the movies. Right.
00:41:09 --> 00:41:12 So we got a big bucket of popcorn and we got
00:41:12 --> 00:41:15 drinks. So I needed a straw and I didn't know
00:41:15 --> 00:41:20 how to say a straw. So I went in because we had
00:41:20 --> 00:41:22 people from Japan, from China. So everybody's
00:41:22 --> 00:41:26 there. And I'm like, okay, so let me think in
00:41:26 --> 00:41:30 French, what would that be? Yes. So in French,
00:41:30 --> 00:41:35 it's either pie or what would be spelled at pipette,
00:41:35 --> 00:41:38 like a small pipe. So I take my whole courage.
00:41:38 --> 00:41:41 I'm like, well, there's nobody here to help because
00:41:41 --> 00:41:44 my friend are from Japan. Like we all in the
00:41:44 --> 00:41:48 same group. So I was like. Can I please get a
00:41:48 --> 00:41:51 small pipe? And they looked at me like, she's
00:41:51 --> 00:41:54 asking for a pipe. I'm like, yeah, for my drink.
00:41:55 --> 00:41:58 Yes. And I was, so later on I learned that pipe
00:41:58 --> 00:42:01 was for plumbing, that it had nothing to do with
00:42:01 --> 00:42:05 the straw. Yeah. Yeah. Or smoking. The slang,
00:42:05 --> 00:42:08 the slang is what's different, right? We have
00:42:08 --> 00:42:11 French Canadians in Canada and, you know, their
00:42:11 --> 00:42:13 French is different than France French, which
00:42:13 --> 00:42:16 is different than your French. Yeah. There are
00:42:16 --> 00:42:19 little nuances like that across the board. I
00:42:19 --> 00:42:23 don't even remember them all, that at first were
00:42:23 --> 00:42:25 challenging, but sooner or later they disappeared.
00:42:25 --> 00:42:28 Yeah, and you laugh about it later on. I'm just
00:42:28 --> 00:42:29 blessed that I have the experience to be here.
00:42:30 --> 00:42:32 I mean, I was in a blessed country as it was.
00:42:32 --> 00:42:36 Canada is also very blessed. I was raised with
00:42:36 --> 00:42:39 lots of love, and living here in the United States,
00:42:39 --> 00:42:41 I've had nothing but great things happen. So
00:42:41 --> 00:42:47 I feel blessed. I am blessed. These little things
00:42:47 --> 00:42:49 don't matter then if you look at the big picture,
00:42:49 --> 00:42:52 right? Yes, yes. And I'm always curious to hear
00:42:52 --> 00:42:56 how you think those experiences, like you being
00:42:56 --> 00:42:58 from another country, you being a competitive
00:42:58 --> 00:43:01 skater, and I think if I remember it well, you
00:43:01 --> 00:43:04 had actually four knee surgeries. Yes. Four.
00:43:04 --> 00:43:09 How all these experiences would shape the way
00:43:09 --> 00:43:12 you lead today or your leadership style view
00:43:12 --> 00:43:19 of things? Yeah, I think. Kindness is really
00:43:19 --> 00:43:22 important. I can come across a little stoic.
00:43:22 --> 00:43:24 You know, those personality assessments we all
00:43:24 --> 00:43:27 take at some business gives you at some point.
00:43:27 --> 00:43:31 I can come across a little stoic when you first
00:43:31 --> 00:43:33 meet me, but that's not who I am on the inside.
00:43:33 --> 00:43:38 I think it's a layer of protectionism from all
00:43:38 --> 00:43:41 that stuff maybe. And I've had to sort of feel.
00:43:41 --> 00:43:44 very comfortable for, I mean, speed skating was
00:43:44 --> 00:43:48 a great example. I never told a soul about my
00:43:48 --> 00:43:51 speed skating background for ever. And then I
00:43:51 --> 00:43:55 was listening to a woman speak. She was talking
00:43:55 --> 00:43:57 about her tennis career and I found it compelling
00:43:57 --> 00:44:01 and extremely interesting. She was a CFO and
00:44:01 --> 00:44:04 I'm like, why am I so afraid? But it was because
00:44:04 --> 00:44:07 I felt like I failed. Well. You know, you can't
00:44:07 --> 00:44:10 plan everything in life. Is that really failure?
00:44:10 --> 00:44:12 You pivoted. You made it all good. You went a
00:44:12 --> 00:44:15 different direction. You know, the car accident
00:44:15 --> 00:44:18 happened. It was nobody's fault. It was the weather.
00:44:18 --> 00:44:21 It was the ice. You weren't speeding, right?
00:44:21 --> 00:44:24 So that sense of self -awareness and reflection,
00:44:24 --> 00:44:29 I think, is really important in realizing how
00:44:29 --> 00:44:32 people view you. So because I know that. I have
00:44:32 --> 00:44:34 to guard myself a little bit. Once you get to
00:44:34 --> 00:44:37 know me, I can be extremely expressive. But I
00:44:37 --> 00:44:39 have to sort of feel comfortable with you first.
00:44:40 --> 00:44:43 And so for me, it's remembering that I need to
00:44:43 --> 00:44:46 come across to the people sometimes at first
00:44:46 --> 00:44:49 in a similar fashion until they get to know me
00:44:49 --> 00:44:52 very well. Not stoic one time and the next time
00:44:52 --> 00:44:54 I'm laughing, you know. And so that's something
00:44:54 --> 00:44:57 I had to learn to manage over about the last
00:44:57 --> 00:44:59 15 years. But thank God somebody gave me that
00:44:59 --> 00:45:03 feedback. right in a in a performance review
00:45:03 --> 00:45:07 and and the the personality assessments I think
00:45:07 --> 00:45:09 it's easy to take that information and go yeah
00:45:09 --> 00:45:12 that's me but then not know what to do about
00:45:12 --> 00:45:15 it and so somebody finally gave me that feedback
00:45:15 --> 00:45:18 once and said you can come across confusing um
00:45:18 --> 00:45:20 sometimes you're very directive yeah i'm a high
00:45:20 --> 00:45:23 d um you can come across very directive and other
00:45:23 --> 00:45:25 times you're so warm and friendly and i think
00:45:25 --> 00:45:28 it confuses people and so this those those kinds
00:45:28 --> 00:45:30 of things you have to just learn how to manage
00:45:30 --> 00:45:33 them so you so your staff your peers your boss
00:45:33 --> 00:45:36 aren't confused by it and i haven't figured anything
00:45:36 --> 00:45:39 out yet i'm still i want to live i want to do
00:45:39 --> 00:45:41 so many more things in my life that i'm kind
00:45:41 --> 00:45:44 of I'm sad we only live as long as we do. Oh,
00:45:44 --> 00:45:47 now I want to hear that part. I want to experiment
00:45:47 --> 00:45:50 a lot. I want to teach. I want to become a fitness
00:45:50 --> 00:45:53 instructor. I have a whole list. My daughter
00:45:53 --> 00:45:56 wants me to write a book. I have a whole list
00:45:56 --> 00:46:00 of stuff I still want to do. So I'm framing up
00:46:00 --> 00:46:04 my portfolio career because I'm a worker. I will
00:46:04 --> 00:46:08 always be busy. So there's no retire for me.
00:46:09 --> 00:46:11 I already know that. I already figured that out.
00:46:11 --> 00:46:13 And there's no, I don't like the term rewire
00:46:13 --> 00:46:15 because it's like something was wrong with you
00:46:15 --> 00:46:19 to begin with. So I met a lady recently and she
00:46:19 --> 00:46:21 was saying I'm having. She was in her 70s, I
00:46:21 --> 00:46:23 believe, because she told me that. She's like,
00:46:23 --> 00:46:26 I'm having so much fun in my portfolio career.
00:46:26 --> 00:46:28 And I said, oh, tell me what that is. She listed
00:46:28 --> 00:46:30 all the same things I want to do, a little consulting,
00:46:30 --> 00:46:35 maybe be a chief audit executive for hire. And
00:46:35 --> 00:46:37 I'm like, that's exactly what I'm going to call
00:46:37 --> 00:46:40 it. So I'm making my list of my portfolio career
00:46:40 --> 00:46:44 so that when I'm ready, I'm set up for. staying
00:46:44 --> 00:46:47 really busy until until my time on this earth
00:46:47 --> 00:46:49 is over and I'm that excites me to stay busy
00:46:49 --> 00:46:52 I like being busy yes I like being busy with
00:46:52 --> 00:46:55 the right thing and I especially like to to schedule
00:46:55 --> 00:46:58 naps in my day my husband thing is crazy I'm
00:46:58 --> 00:47:00 like no that's part of being busy because I need
00:47:00 --> 00:47:02 all the energy I can get so this is all part
00:47:02 --> 00:47:06 of me being busy there yeah studies show that
00:47:06 --> 00:47:08 you're better after that nap now I can't nap
00:47:08 --> 00:47:10 I've never napped I don't know why I'm broken
00:47:10 --> 00:47:14 but Good for you that you can. I'll be praying
00:47:14 --> 00:47:17 for you because a good nap will change your life.
00:47:17 --> 00:47:20 It probably will, yeah. My last question before
00:47:20 --> 00:47:24 we leave. If you had a magic wand, what is one
00:47:24 --> 00:47:26 thing you would change about your career or your
00:47:26 --> 00:47:30 life? Yeah, that's a hard question for me. I
00:47:30 --> 00:47:32 guess, can I tell you why it's a hard question
00:47:32 --> 00:47:35 first? It's a hard question for me because I
00:47:35 --> 00:47:39 try not to look back. except for to be self -reflective
00:47:39 --> 00:47:44 and learning about myself, I try to say, well,
00:47:44 --> 00:47:48 that happened. I could do it better. Or I like
00:47:48 --> 00:47:54 that. I'll do more of it. And I don't believe
00:47:54 --> 00:48:00 in luck, I think, or magic wand, because I think
00:48:00 --> 00:48:02 luck is being prepared when the circumstances
00:48:02 --> 00:48:06 present themselves. And so it's like that foundation
00:48:06 --> 00:48:09 of our technical skill set. It's all the stuff
00:48:09 --> 00:48:12 I've learned about the soft skills. It's all
00:48:12 --> 00:48:13 the stuff I've learned about being authentic
00:48:13 --> 00:48:20 and coming across evenly to people. But if I
00:48:20 --> 00:48:26 could, I'd probably hope that I didn't have the
00:48:26 --> 00:48:28 car accident. That would be nice, not to have
00:48:28 --> 00:48:34 to rehabilitate for three years. I also believe
00:48:34 --> 00:48:37 you have to take those adversity moments and
00:48:37 --> 00:48:42 turn them into learnings and deepening of your
00:48:42 --> 00:48:46 soul. And I am not sorry the car accident happened
00:48:46 --> 00:48:49 and changed my life. I think I'm a better person
00:48:49 --> 00:48:52 for it. I think I'm deeper. I think I understand
00:48:52 --> 00:48:55 how blessed I am because of it. And it made me
00:48:55 --> 00:49:00 very resilient as well. So I think you have to
00:49:00 --> 00:49:02 look at all parts of your life and be thankful
00:49:02 --> 00:49:04 for it. That's beautiful. Well, thank you so
00:49:04 --> 00:49:07 much, Lori, for being on the show. It was so,
00:49:07 --> 00:49:10 so, so amazing. I still want to know off record
00:49:10 --> 00:49:15 how she got four knee surgeries. She told me.
00:49:16 --> 00:49:20 Okay. But thank you so much. I'll let you guys
00:49:20 --> 00:49:23 keep guessing. It was great to be here. Thank
00:49:23 --> 00:49:25 you for asking me to do this. And your questions
00:49:25 --> 00:49:28 were very interesting. And I enjoyed this time
00:49:28 --> 00:49:31 with you. Thank you so much. That's so great
00:49:31 --> 00:49:33 to hear. Thank you.