Jack McCullough has spent decades in the CFO seat, but his biggest impact may be what he’s done for the next generation of CFOs.
He’s the founder of the CFO Leadership Council, a global community of over 2,500 senior finance leaders, and the author of three books including Secrets of Rockstar CFOs and MBA for Lunch.
In this conversation, Jack opens up about:
- What companies really look for in a CFO,
- Why some controllers get stuck (and what to do about it),
- How one rejection led him to create the CFO Leadership Council,
- The most underrated career move finance professionals can make.
This is a must-listen for finance professionals at every stage.
00:00:03 --> 00:00:07 Welcome back to the Diary of a CFO podcast, the
00:00:07 --> 00:00:09 podcast where finance leaders share the lessons,
00:00:09 --> 00:00:12 challenges, and the wins that shape their careers
00:00:12 --> 00:00:15 as well as their organizations. I'm your host,
00:00:15 --> 00:00:18 Wassia Kamon, and today I'm super delighted
00:00:18 --> 00:00:20 to have with me Jack McCullough. He is a founder
00:00:20 --> 00:00:24 of the CFO Leadership Council, a global community
00:00:24 --> 00:00:27 of over 2 senior financial executives. He
00:00:27 --> 00:00:30 has served as CFO for multiple organizations,
00:00:31 --> 00:00:34 from high growth startups to Fortune 500 companies.
00:00:34 --> 00:00:37 Jack is the author of three books, including
00:00:37 --> 00:00:40 NBA For Lunch, which was just released this week.
00:00:40 --> 00:00:43 He is also a senior contributor to the Forbes
00:00:43 --> 00:00:46 CFO Network, the host of The Secrets of Rockstar
00:00:46 --> 00:00:49 CFO's podcast, and has been featured on The Wall
00:00:49 --> 00:00:53 Street Journal, Bloomberg, Barron, CNBC, and
00:00:53 --> 00:00:56 so many other cool places. Welcome to the show,
00:00:56 --> 00:00:59 Jack. Wow, you make me sound a lot better than
00:00:59 --> 00:01:01 I actually am, Wassia. Great to be here. Thanks
00:01:01 --> 00:01:04 for having me. Of course, of course. You're such
00:01:04 --> 00:01:09 a rock star. So why don't you tell us about your
00:01:09 --> 00:01:11 career journey, what drew you to accounting in
00:01:11 --> 00:01:13 the first place, and what's the story behind
00:01:13 --> 00:01:16 how you found yourself in your current position?
00:01:16 --> 00:01:19 When I look back and you and I know each other
00:01:19 --> 00:01:22 a little bit and I was kind of like this at 18
00:01:22 --> 00:01:24 and, you know, you probably wouldn't think, boy,
00:01:24 --> 00:01:26 that's a guy that's going to find a fulfilling
00:01:26 --> 00:01:29 career path in accounting. Right. Because I'm
00:01:29 --> 00:01:31 an extrovert and a bit of a clown. And like people
00:01:31 --> 00:01:33 kind of didn't believe me that I was going to
00:01:33 --> 00:01:36 major in accounting. But I took an accounting
00:01:36 --> 00:01:38 class in high school. I was pretty good at it.
00:01:38 --> 00:01:41 I liked it because what I liked about accounting
00:01:41 --> 00:01:45 is that it's logical and it makes sense. I can
00:01:45 --> 00:01:48 follow it. And if you do, it's like solving a
00:01:48 --> 00:01:51 puzzle. Yes. But this puzzle is always solvable.
00:01:51 --> 00:01:53 You just have to keep trying to do it. And that
00:01:53 --> 00:01:55 actually does fit into my personality a little
00:01:55 --> 00:01:58 bit. So I studied accounting at Suffolk University,
00:01:58 --> 00:02:01 and then I went into a few younger listeners,
00:02:01 --> 00:02:04 the big eight accounting firms. There were once
00:02:04 --> 00:02:06 eight of them. I went for it was a predecessor
00:02:06 --> 00:02:09 to what's now known as KPMG. Its name when I
00:02:09 --> 00:02:12 joined was Pete Mywork and Mitchell. Then I worked
00:02:12 --> 00:02:14 there for three years, became a CPA, good work
00:02:14 --> 00:02:17 experience, great company. It really wasn't for
00:02:17 --> 00:02:20 me. But so I ended up working for a client, a
00:02:20 --> 00:02:23 company called Jensen Corporation. We were it's
00:02:23 --> 00:02:26 pretty hot now, but it was considered an odd
00:02:26 --> 00:02:28 company in the day because it was artificial
00:02:28 --> 00:02:31 intelligence. When people heard AI back then,
00:02:32 --> 00:02:33 they were thinking Arnold Schwarzenegger and
00:02:33 --> 00:02:37 the Terminator movies. And I'll be back. Geez,
00:02:37 --> 00:02:39 I was going to do that. This is better than mine.
00:02:39 --> 00:02:41 But, you know, people thought that it was viewed
00:02:41 --> 00:02:45 as like a weird. technology, so we never used
00:02:45 --> 00:02:47 it. It was called Real Time Expert Systems and
00:02:47 --> 00:02:50 then Online Intelligence Solutions at the internet
00:02:50 --> 00:02:52 boom. But, you know, it's a company I'm quite
00:02:52 --> 00:02:54 proud of. We were actually the very first AI
00:02:54 --> 00:02:56 company to be profitable. Yeah, that was kind
00:02:56 --> 00:02:58 of something. And we took the company public.
00:02:58 --> 00:03:00 We weren't the first to go public. But, you know,
00:03:00 --> 00:03:03 it's a typical IPO type of story, you know, went
00:03:03 --> 00:03:06 out at eight, peaked at 30, you know, ended up
00:03:06 --> 00:03:09 selling it too. So, you know, but it was a great
00:03:09 --> 00:03:13 ride. really enjoyed it. And then I was a controller
00:03:13 --> 00:03:16 there. I didn't think I would get a CFO job with
00:03:16 --> 00:03:19 the credentials I had. Maybe I would have, maybe
00:03:19 --> 00:03:21 I wouldn't have, but I decided to go back and
00:03:21 --> 00:03:25 get an MBA, which I pursued at MIT Sloan. It's
00:03:25 --> 00:03:28 one of those things. The MBA made the world perceive
00:03:28 --> 00:03:32 me as a lot smarter than I was before I got it.
00:03:32 --> 00:03:35 Before I was just a guy who'd been a controller
00:03:35 --> 00:03:38 at a company nobody had heard of. and a CPA.
00:03:39 --> 00:03:41 And suddenly, you know, I had an MBA and I was
00:03:41 --> 00:03:44 treated like the whiz kid. It opened up doors
00:03:44 --> 00:03:47 and I became a CFO at a company called Top Layer
00:03:47 --> 00:03:51 Networks. And along the way, I started a part
00:03:51 --> 00:03:54 time CFO business and started doing the CFO.
00:03:54 --> 00:03:56 It was at the time we were calling it the CFO
00:03:56 --> 00:03:59 Roundtable. Then we actually started launching
00:03:59 --> 00:04:01 chapters, including in your hometown of Atlanta.
00:04:02 --> 00:04:04 There were two groups in Atlanta at the time.
00:04:04 --> 00:04:06 There may still be, for all I know, but called
00:04:06 --> 00:04:09 the CFO Roundtable. we were getting confused
00:04:09 --> 00:04:10 with them. So we changed the name to the CFO
00:04:10 --> 00:04:13 Leadership Council. I launched that in 2006.
00:04:13 --> 00:04:15 It was kind of a hobby between other things,
00:04:15 --> 00:04:17 but it's been my full -time job for a decade.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:22 Love what I do. Wow. That's amazing. Wow. And
00:04:22 --> 00:04:25 I've been a member of the CFO Leadership Council
00:04:25 --> 00:04:28 for two years now. And when I joined, I wasn't
00:04:28 --> 00:04:32 a CFO. I was a controller. And about a year and
00:04:32 --> 00:04:36 a half or so later, I became CFO. On every other
00:04:36 --> 00:04:38 podcast, people will hear me talk about the CFO
00:04:38 --> 00:04:40 Leadership Council. Maybe I should get an affiliate
00:04:40 --> 00:04:44 link or something, because this is so, so good.
00:04:45 --> 00:04:48 So when you started it, did you envision it being
00:04:48 --> 00:04:51 like more than what it became? Like you said
00:04:51 --> 00:04:53 it started as a hobby. At which point did you
00:04:53 --> 00:04:56 actually flip for you? I was a CFO at the time.
00:04:57 --> 00:04:59 I applied to join F .E .I. Financial Executives
00:04:59 --> 00:05:03 Institute, which is a great organization. For
00:05:03 --> 00:05:05 whatever reason, I was denied membership. Which
00:05:05 --> 00:05:09 yeah, I was I was a CFO, you know people joke
00:05:09 --> 00:05:12 I'm the only CFO in the history of the organization
00:05:12 --> 00:05:14 that was denied membership But I never really
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 found out why Probably somebody just didn't like
00:05:17 --> 00:05:19 me. They didn't like don't like bald people or
00:05:19 --> 00:05:21 something. I don't know Too many bald people
00:05:21 --> 00:05:24 in this group, but it goes from here Hopefully
00:05:24 --> 00:05:27 that wasn't the reason but you know, I did See,
00:05:27 --> 00:05:29 you know, I'd been, I'd attended the meetings
00:05:29 --> 00:05:31 and I liked them and I made some friends. So
00:05:31 --> 00:05:33 I did see the value of having a peer network.
00:05:34 --> 00:05:35 You know, the expression, if you can't beat them,
00:05:35 --> 00:05:38 join them. I reversed it. I said, if you can't
00:05:38 --> 00:05:40 join them, beat them. So I started my own. Yeah,
00:05:40 --> 00:05:42 we didn't, we didn't actually beat them. There's
00:05:42 --> 00:05:44 they're thriving. We're thriving. So, and you
00:05:44 --> 00:05:46 know, we have, I'm friends with all of them.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:48 They're friends with mine, with me. So. Wow.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:52 So one rejection makes you go high gear. Okay.
00:05:52 --> 00:05:55 Let me really turn this up and build it to where
00:05:55 --> 00:05:59 it is now. Yeah, had they not rejected me, the
00:05:59 --> 00:06:02 CFO Leadership Council simply wouldn't ever have
00:06:02 --> 00:06:04 existed. I would have had no reason to start
00:06:04 --> 00:06:06 a group if I was a member of a well -established,
00:06:06 --> 00:06:09 well -respected group, right? FEI is a great
00:06:09 --> 00:06:11 organization. If I had any bitterness at the
00:06:11 --> 00:06:15 time for being denied membership, I'm long over
00:06:15 --> 00:06:17 it. I don't think I was ever bitter as much as
00:06:17 --> 00:06:18 confused. But yeah, you know, that's what forced
00:06:18 --> 00:06:21 me to start this organization, which I kind of
00:06:21 --> 00:06:23 think, you know, that they maybe wish I hadn't.
00:06:24 --> 00:06:27 I don't know. So that's them for sure. So that's
00:06:27 --> 00:06:30 awesome. So what was that transition like? Like
00:06:30 --> 00:06:32 you were in your full time role and then you
00:06:32 --> 00:06:35 started this leadership council. Now you really
00:06:35 --> 00:06:37 want to get it. You really want to have this
00:06:37 --> 00:06:40 become a bigger organization. What was that transition
00:06:40 --> 00:06:44 like? Like how did you surround yourself or how
00:06:44 --> 00:06:47 did how did it go? Yeah, you know, I did it for
00:06:47 --> 00:06:50 two years. I was a CFO at the time I was a bit
00:06:50 --> 00:06:53 of a victim of my own success because I had a
00:06:53 --> 00:06:55 good career as a CFO I liked it. I like my job.
00:06:55 --> 00:06:57 I like my company I like the work I was doing
00:06:57 --> 00:07:00 and you know, I was getting reasonably well paid
00:07:00 --> 00:07:03 So this was taking up a lot of my time. So after
00:07:03 --> 00:07:06 the second year I told people that I'm not gonna
00:07:06 --> 00:07:09 continue it and it didn't really there was no
00:07:09 --> 00:07:12 entity that legally existed it was just I said
00:07:12 --> 00:07:15 the CFO roundtable I paid for the food out of
00:07:15 --> 00:07:17 my own checks. I asked people to contribute 25
00:07:17 --> 00:07:19 bucks to come, that type of thing. But they asked
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 me not to do it. And I just said, look, it's
00:07:21 --> 00:07:24 too much time. You're welcome to do it, if you
00:07:24 --> 00:07:26 think it's that easy. But they said, why don't
00:07:26 --> 00:07:29 you start charging dues and hire somebody to
00:07:29 --> 00:07:31 do the administrative stuff? That way you can
00:07:31 --> 00:07:33 do the stuff that you like doing. And it won't
00:07:33 --> 00:07:34 be that much of a burden. So I ended up doing
00:07:34 --> 00:07:38 that. I got an advisory board. I posted a job
00:07:38 --> 00:07:40 on Craigslist. Do you remember Craigslist? Yes.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:42 It may still be around. I don't know. But yeah,
00:07:42 --> 00:07:45 15 bucks is the best 15 bucks I ever spent. And
00:07:45 --> 00:07:48 I hired a woman named Becky Blackler. I wanted
00:07:48 --> 00:07:53 to hire a mom because I had a good job that it
00:07:53 --> 00:07:57 was probably 10 to 15 hours a week, but you only
00:07:57 --> 00:08:00 had to leave the house four hours a month. So
00:08:00 --> 00:08:02 I thought this was a good job for a stay at home
00:08:02 --> 00:08:07 mom. And this was like 2008 today. That's not
00:08:07 --> 00:08:09 a rare thing. But and, you know, there weren't
00:08:09 --> 00:08:12 a lot of companies that were looking to hire
00:08:12 --> 00:08:17 parents to work 10 hours a week, five away. And
00:08:17 --> 00:08:19 she's making pretty good money because I just
00:08:19 --> 00:08:23 said, I not doing this for the money, but let's
00:08:23 --> 00:08:25 charge dues. We even got in a sponsor to and
00:08:25 --> 00:08:27 I'll make enough to cover costs. And, you know,
00:08:27 --> 00:08:30 you you can keep whatever they pay. And, you
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 know, it ended up like it was like 60 grand a
00:08:32 --> 00:08:35 year. So. Pretty good money for a part -time
00:08:35 --> 00:08:38 job. And yeah, that worked out well. And then
00:08:38 --> 00:08:41 she wanted to take on more hours. So she launched
00:08:41 --> 00:08:44 the chapters in New York and Philadelphia. And,
00:08:45 --> 00:08:47 you know, they all flourished a little bit. And
00:08:47 --> 00:08:50 then we just decided I would quit my job and
00:08:50 --> 00:08:55 give this a go. Wow. Impressive. Because what
00:08:55 --> 00:08:58 I like about the forum is first the questions
00:08:58 --> 00:09:00 that I see every day. I was like... questions
00:09:00 --> 00:09:03 that I wouldn't even think about, right? So it
00:09:03 --> 00:09:05 allows me to stretch my thinking. I think I feel
00:09:05 --> 00:09:08 like I'm learning every day, even though there's
00:09:08 --> 00:09:12 no chapter meetings every day. So how did that
00:09:12 --> 00:09:15 chat or forum started? It's actually just a simple
00:09:15 --> 00:09:19 Google groups, but I just wanted a way for the
00:09:19 --> 00:09:22 members who weren't in the same cities to connect.
00:09:22 --> 00:09:26 I think the time I started it, we may have had
00:09:26 --> 00:09:30 12 cities at that point, 12 chapters. And it's
00:09:30 --> 00:09:33 eight to 12, somewhere in there. And they were
00:09:33 --> 00:09:36 like fiefdoms, you know, and I was like, these
00:09:36 --> 00:09:39 people would be friends and support each other
00:09:39 --> 00:09:41 and grow with each other. If there was a mechanism,
00:09:41 --> 00:09:43 they could get to know each other because, you
00:09:43 --> 00:09:44 know, they they weren't going to fly to Boston
00:09:44 --> 00:09:47 to attend meetings. Right. They happen to be
00:09:47 --> 00:09:49 in Boston during a meeting. They might or, you
00:09:49 --> 00:09:50 know, Bostonians not going to fly to Chicago
00:09:50 --> 00:09:54 to go to a meeting. That was kind of low cost,
00:09:54 --> 00:09:57 potentially big reward if it worked. And, you
00:09:57 --> 00:09:59 know, now it's our most popular member benefit.
00:09:59 --> 00:10:02 And you've been to like some of our conferences,
00:10:02 --> 00:10:05 right? And the publication CFO Brew, when they
00:10:05 --> 00:10:08 covered the conference, they said it set the
00:10:08 --> 00:10:11 world record for hugs at a financial event. We're
00:10:11 --> 00:10:13 not just a group of people that goes to the same
00:10:13 --> 00:10:15 events. It's actually a community. We like each
00:10:15 --> 00:10:18 other. When someone is looking for a job, people
00:10:18 --> 00:10:21 help them out. People read each other's resumes.
00:10:21 --> 00:10:23 They give each other leads, that sort of thing.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:27 You know, that wouldn't have happened. Maybe
00:10:27 --> 00:10:29 the same number of people wouldn't would be coming
00:10:29 --> 00:10:33 to the conference. Probably not. But it wouldn't
00:10:33 --> 00:10:35 have happened without CFO Connect, because they
00:10:35 --> 00:10:36 sort of kind of got to know each other a little
00:10:36 --> 00:10:39 bit over CFO Connect. It's like, oh, we'll see.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:41 She helped me out with that problem three months
00:10:41 --> 00:10:43 ago. I got to go say hi to her. So yes, yes,
00:10:44 --> 00:10:48 that's amazing. And so now that you the chapters,
00:10:48 --> 00:10:51 everything is booming. At what point is you starting
00:10:51 --> 00:10:55 writing books? Because like CFO then getting
00:10:55 --> 00:10:57 busy. I love your story because people told me
00:10:57 --> 00:11:00 you you became a CFO and you launch a podcast
00:11:00 --> 00:11:03 or see a why. So I'm so grateful to be talking
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05 to somebody similar. At which point did you start
00:11:05 --> 00:11:09 writing the books? Well, I actually had a presentation.
00:11:10 --> 00:11:12 It was getting good reviews. I was probably gave
00:11:12 --> 00:11:16 it, you know, 15 times or variations of it at
00:11:16 --> 00:11:19 the times I was calling it habits of. highly
00:11:19 --> 00:11:22 successful CFOs. And people said, you know, it's
00:11:22 --> 00:11:24 good that you're public speaking, but, you know,
00:11:24 --> 00:11:27 you can only as a public speaker, you know, it's
00:11:27 --> 00:11:29 not like I'm doing the Bruce Springsteen thing,
00:11:30 --> 00:11:32 you know, 60 people. But why don't you write
00:11:32 --> 00:11:35 a book about it? That way you can reach a broader
00:11:35 --> 00:11:37 audience. And, you know, you sort of have the
00:11:37 --> 00:11:39 knowledge. It's just a matter of finding an editor
00:11:39 --> 00:11:42 to help you do it and a designer. I didn't feel
00:11:42 --> 00:11:45 like I could keep that name with the Covey people.
00:11:45 --> 00:11:47 They don't have a legal right. to the name, but,
00:11:48 --> 00:11:50 you know, clearly from habits of highly effective
00:11:50 --> 00:11:53 people. Right. We sort of brainstorm. It's like,
00:11:53 --> 00:11:55 what are your passions? And, you know, one of
00:11:55 --> 00:11:58 them is rock and roll. And I'm a head banger.
00:11:59 --> 00:12:02 So they said, what about secrets of rock star
00:12:02 --> 00:12:04 CFOs? It sort of gives the same vibe, but reflects
00:12:04 --> 00:12:08 your own personality. So that became a book.
00:12:08 --> 00:12:11 Then I wrote another one on the psychopathic
00:12:11 --> 00:12:15 CEO that was inspired. We had a FBI agent speak
00:12:15 --> 00:12:18 at one of our events. Her expertise was corporate
00:12:18 --> 00:12:22 psychopathy. Oh, wow. Yeah, I had worked for
00:12:22 --> 00:12:24 a guy that I'll be nice, I'll assume that this
00:12:24 --> 00:12:28 is a PG format, so I won't... Yes. But, you know,
00:12:28 --> 00:12:30 I just thought he was obnoxious. I thought he
00:12:30 --> 00:12:33 was a lot worse than obnoxious, but I'll be polite.
00:12:33 --> 00:12:35 When she gave her presentation, I had, like,
00:12:35 --> 00:12:36 one of those, you know, you could see the little
00:12:36 --> 00:12:38 light bulb go off over my head. It's like, oh,
00:12:38 --> 00:12:40 my God, he wasn't just obnoxious, he was a psychopath.
00:12:41 --> 00:12:44 Then she said by a show of hands, how many people
00:12:44 --> 00:12:46 feel based upon the description, they may have
00:12:46 --> 00:12:48 worked for psychopath at some point in their
00:12:48 --> 00:12:50 careers. Yeah, but more than half the room, including
00:12:50 --> 00:12:53 me. I'm like, oh my gosh, but you know, I and
00:12:53 --> 00:12:55 I kept in touch with there just because I found
00:12:55 --> 00:12:58 it fascinating. And during COVID, she encouraged
00:12:58 --> 00:13:00 me to write a book. She's still with the bureau.
00:13:00 --> 00:13:01 She's like, I can't really write a book when
00:13:01 --> 00:13:04 I'm with the bureau, but clearly have an interest
00:13:04 --> 00:13:06 in it. You've got a track record and you've got
00:13:06 --> 00:13:09 an audience. So I'll introduce you to the right
00:13:09 --> 00:13:11 people. You know, it was probably probably a
00:13:11 --> 00:13:14 pretty good book. So, oh, wow. And then from
00:13:14 --> 00:13:18 then your third book, NBA for Lunch. What was
00:13:18 --> 00:13:20 the story behind that one? Yeah, that was when
00:13:20 --> 00:13:24 I got my NBA when I was in my 20s. I was not
00:13:24 --> 00:13:27 a CFO. I didn't have kids. I was married. But
00:13:27 --> 00:13:28 I don't want to say it was easy to do because
00:13:28 --> 00:13:32 I don't want to suggest that. But it's hard for
00:13:32 --> 00:13:34 somebody. It would be hard. And I don't know
00:13:34 --> 00:13:37 if your family situation, but if you have kids
00:13:37 --> 00:13:40 and you're a CFO. You have two kids. You could
00:13:40 --> 00:13:44 get an MBA, but man, that would be at most the
00:13:44 --> 00:13:46 third most important thing in your life and probably.
00:13:47 --> 00:13:51 Yeah, it took me eight years to do my MBA. Yeah.
00:13:51 --> 00:13:54 But, you know, there was two watershed moments
00:13:54 --> 00:13:58 in my mind anyway. One was six years ago, but
00:13:58 --> 00:14:00 Spencer Stewart actually I don't think they did
00:14:00 --> 00:14:02 a survey. I just think they counted. amongst
00:14:02 --> 00:14:05 the Fortune 500. And it was the first time that
00:14:05 --> 00:14:08 there were more MBAs than CPAs amongst the Fortune
00:14:08 --> 00:14:12 500 CFOs, actually Fortune 5 . Since I'm
00:14:12 --> 00:14:14 referencing them, I owe them the courtesy of
00:14:14 --> 00:14:17 getting it right, don't I? But that was kind
00:14:17 --> 00:14:19 of weird. And while it's not like it's six to
00:14:19 --> 00:14:22 one or something like that, that gap's only widened
00:14:22 --> 00:14:25 a little bit. So the MBA apparently is the better
00:14:25 --> 00:14:28 credential for the CFO. And then I was actually
00:14:28 --> 00:14:32 presenting to the portfolio companies of a very
00:14:32 --> 00:14:35 well -regarded private equity firm. And one of
00:14:35 --> 00:14:37 the people, one of the investors said, and there
00:14:37 --> 00:14:40 were like 40 CFOs, one of the investors said
00:14:40 --> 00:14:45 they wouldn't hire a CPA to be the CFO. Wow.
00:14:45 --> 00:14:47 Or they didn't value the credential. They said
00:14:47 --> 00:14:50 CPAs make great controllers. They make great
00:14:50 --> 00:14:52 chief accounting officers. Great respect for
00:14:52 --> 00:14:57 them. I don't value them. as a CFO unless there's
00:14:57 --> 00:15:00 something else about them. They would totally
00:15:00 --> 00:15:02 discount the credential. I don't necessarily
00:15:02 --> 00:15:05 agree with that as a former CPA. You know, I
00:15:05 --> 00:15:08 learned a lot during that process that does help
00:15:08 --> 00:15:11 CFOs. But the point was they're looking for someone
00:15:11 --> 00:15:13 a little bit, you know, that they value strategic.
00:15:14 --> 00:15:16 And they did say, yes, we would take a CPA if
00:15:16 --> 00:15:20 they also had an MBA. But I just realized two
00:15:20 --> 00:15:22 things. One, you know, there are CFOs in their
00:15:22 --> 00:15:25 40s. two young kids, whatever it might be. I
00:15:25 --> 00:15:28 don't mean to typecast CFOs, but they're not
00:15:28 --> 00:15:29 going to go back and get a full -time CPA. And
00:15:29 --> 00:15:31 if they get a part -time, it's going to be, you
00:15:31 --> 00:15:33 know, multiple years like you, but they need
00:15:33 --> 00:15:36 to have this knowledge. So what if I could look
00:15:36 --> 00:15:39 at what's being taught in modern MBA programs
00:15:39 --> 00:15:41 and distill it into something that you could
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 read in an hour? I recommend people read it once
00:15:44 --> 00:15:46 or twice. It's probably a little bit more than
00:15:46 --> 00:15:48 an hour, but then just, you know, keep it as
00:15:48 --> 00:15:50 a reference guide because there are things that,
00:15:50 --> 00:15:53 you know, I I feel stupid, like the first chapters
00:15:53 --> 00:15:56 on financial concepts. I can't tell my readers
00:15:56 --> 00:15:59 to skip chapter one. But, you know, CFOs are
00:15:59 --> 00:16:01 reading this and I'm explaining what EBITDA is.
00:16:01 --> 00:16:03 They're going to be. What? Why are you telling
00:16:03 --> 00:16:05 me the net present value formula? Don't you think
00:16:05 --> 00:16:08 I know that I'm a CFO? But, you know, I couldn't
00:16:08 --> 00:16:10 do an MBA book and not include that and not have
00:16:10 --> 00:16:12 that. Yes. But if you're a CFO, skip chapter
00:16:12 --> 00:16:15 one. But there was kind of, you know, behind
00:16:15 --> 00:16:18 it, I just wanted to give them a tool that would
00:16:18 --> 00:16:21 not remotely saying it can replace an MBA, but.
00:16:21 --> 00:16:24 It gives you ways to solve problems and approach
00:16:24 --> 00:16:26 things that, you know, maybe you wouldn't have
00:16:26 --> 00:16:29 absent the book. Wow. Thank you for the book.
00:16:29 --> 00:16:32 And one thing that stuck with me is the part
00:16:32 --> 00:16:35 where you said they already knew that they wouldn't
00:16:35 --> 00:16:39 hire a CPA for the role of CFO. When you look
00:16:39 --> 00:16:41 at that, because I saw the same studies for the
00:16:41 --> 00:16:46 longest time, CPAs were the natural CFOs. What
00:16:46 --> 00:16:50 do you think created that change in perception
00:16:50 --> 00:16:52 over time? Yeah, it's interesting because when
00:16:52 --> 00:16:55 I became a CFO, the world just changed so much.
00:16:55 --> 00:16:58 My first CFO job was almost, gosh, suddenly made
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 myself feel old. It was almost 30 years ago,
00:17:00 --> 00:17:03 but we all had the same resume. Bluntly, you
00:17:03 --> 00:17:05 know, it was, I worked in the tech space, but
00:17:05 --> 00:17:08 it was big eight accounting firm, accounting
00:17:08 --> 00:17:12 manager, controller, CFO. And that was kind of
00:17:12 --> 00:17:14 bad. The other thing it's sort of a set, you
00:17:14 --> 00:17:17 know, is like 85 % of us were white men. And
00:17:17 --> 00:17:19 that was just, that was the reality back then.
00:17:20 --> 00:17:24 the business world has changed and the expectations
00:17:24 --> 00:17:28 of CFOs have changed. And now that the job used
00:17:28 --> 00:17:31 to be, I probably got the CFO job. I did have
00:17:31 --> 00:17:34 the MBA and that absolutely helped. But if I
00:17:34 --> 00:17:36 weren't a good controller, I wouldn't have gotten
00:17:36 --> 00:17:39 the CFO job despite the MBA at the time. Maybe
00:17:39 --> 00:17:41 today, in fact, certainly today you don't need
00:17:41 --> 00:17:44 to be a controller to get a CFO job. There are
00:17:44 --> 00:17:46 a lot of patterns. The business world's gotten
00:17:46 --> 00:17:50 more complex. And the CFO role has grown along
00:17:50 --> 00:17:55 with it. People are looking for leadership qualities.
00:17:55 --> 00:17:57 They're looking for strategic thinkers. They're
00:17:57 --> 00:18:00 looking for people who are collaborative, who
00:18:00 --> 00:18:03 understand broader business issues and who are
00:18:03 --> 00:18:05 good communicators. I know plenty of CPAs who
00:18:05 --> 00:18:09 have all of those things, but they don't want
00:18:09 --> 00:18:13 people to attack the CFO job through a controller's
00:18:13 --> 00:18:16 lens or through a CPA's lens. That's part of
00:18:16 --> 00:18:19 it. That's great. You know, but there's the position
00:18:19 --> 00:18:22 chief accounting officer that didn't exist at
00:18:22 --> 00:18:24 the start of my career that I know of. I never
00:18:24 --> 00:18:27 met a chief accounting officer till about 2015,
00:18:27 --> 00:18:31 but accounting has become so specialized. If
00:18:31 --> 00:18:33 the business is complex, there's no way a CFO
00:18:33 --> 00:18:36 can be an accounting expert. When I graduated
00:18:36 --> 00:18:39 college, it was FASB 86. Yeah. Beginning of time
00:18:39 --> 00:18:42 to 1987, there were 86 of them. Now there's,
00:18:42 --> 00:18:46 you know, hundreds. Wow. So yeah, you know, it's
00:18:46 --> 00:18:48 just a different world and different expectations.
00:18:48 --> 00:18:52 In fact, I did, I can't call it a poll. It wasn't
00:18:52 --> 00:18:55 statistically valid, but I reached out to CFO
00:18:55 --> 00:19:01 customers. And by that, I mean CEOs, investors,
00:19:01 --> 00:19:04 board members, and other members of the C -suite.
00:19:05 --> 00:19:08 What do you value in a CFO? It actually led itself
00:19:08 --> 00:19:11 to a nice little acronym, but what was interesting,
00:19:12 --> 00:19:14 almost nobody said finance or accounting skills.
00:19:15 --> 00:19:17 And, you know, maybe the stakes, but it lent
00:19:17 --> 00:19:20 itself to an acronym. It's pretty easy to remember.
00:19:20 --> 00:19:23 So, folks, write this down. But it's a pencil
00:19:23 --> 00:19:26 and paper. But create. And these were the sort
00:19:26 --> 00:19:29 of the formula for a good CFO. It's collaboration,
00:19:30 --> 00:19:35 resiliency, empathy. A is agility, transparency
00:19:35 --> 00:19:38 and empowerment. And, you know, they didn't say
00:19:38 --> 00:19:39 empowerment, for example, but they said, you
00:19:39 --> 00:19:42 know, a good leader of the team, someone who
00:19:42 --> 00:19:45 can develop a world class finance team. you know,
00:19:45 --> 00:19:47 agility, the ability to react quickly to things.
00:19:47 --> 00:19:50 So I was able to take them. And like I said,
00:19:50 --> 00:19:53 they're very little. A few people mentioned digital
00:19:53 --> 00:19:55 mastery because that relationship with the CIO
00:19:55 --> 00:19:59 and the all digital CFO is a myth, but you can't
00:19:59 --> 00:20:01 be a good CFO without some digital expertise.
00:20:02 --> 00:20:04 Right. But yes, you need a lot of skills. It's
00:20:04 --> 00:20:07 it's a very complex job today. So whereas when
00:20:07 --> 00:20:10 I was it, it was just best accountant. Yes. Yes.
00:20:10 --> 00:20:13 So what would you say? controllers now, because
00:20:13 --> 00:20:15 I came also from a controllership background,
00:20:16 --> 00:20:18 but I had a chance to work full time in FP &A
00:20:18 --> 00:20:22 for a couple years, which helped me expand into
00:20:22 --> 00:20:25 business partnering, modeling, understanding
00:20:25 --> 00:20:28 scenario, becoming more strategic. But I feel
00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 the pain for a lot of controllers when they're
00:20:30 --> 00:20:32 told you're not strategic enough. And so that
00:20:32 --> 00:20:35 next step is not guaranteed, if I can say. What
00:20:35 --> 00:20:38 would be your advice to them? Yeah, first, I
00:20:38 --> 00:20:41 don't know. that they're not strategic enough
00:20:41 --> 00:20:44 as much as they're in a role that doesn't allow
00:20:44 --> 00:20:47 them to be strategic enough. Yes. It's like people
00:20:47 --> 00:20:51 who aren't controllers don't respect and appreciate
00:20:51 --> 00:20:54 how hard that job is. And to lead a team and
00:20:54 --> 00:20:58 if it's a complex business to produce accurate
00:20:58 --> 00:21:01 and timely financial statements to make the trains
00:21:01 --> 00:21:05 run on time, that's so hard. I don't know a good
00:21:05 --> 00:21:09 CFO at a bigger company anyway who hasn't said
00:21:10 --> 00:21:12 They're, you know, they're at a loss without
00:21:12 --> 00:21:14 a good controller. They could not be a successful
00:21:14 --> 00:21:16 CFO if they didn't have somebody to make the
00:21:16 --> 00:21:19 trains run on time. I don't think that it's controllers
00:21:19 --> 00:21:22 who aren't strategic. I just think the role is
00:21:22 --> 00:21:24 demanding. And, you know, if you're, if you're
00:21:24 --> 00:21:27 faced with a decision, you know, spend some time
00:21:27 --> 00:21:29 learning some strategic stuff, you know, partnering
00:21:29 --> 00:21:32 with the marketing group or you're a public company
00:21:32 --> 00:21:34 and books have to be closed by the fifth day
00:21:34 --> 00:21:36 of the following month following at the end of
00:21:36 --> 00:21:38 the quarter, which you're going to do, right?
00:21:38 --> 00:21:41 It's not that, but there are ways you can expose
00:21:41 --> 00:21:43 yourself to some things. You know, find a CFO
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 who wants to be a good mentor to you, your boss.
00:21:46 --> 00:21:49 Also, I recommend, and this is one of the things
00:21:49 --> 00:21:51 I love about you is you and I have taken this
00:21:51 --> 00:21:53 commitment seriously. I think once you get to
00:21:53 --> 00:21:57 the CFO role, you owe it to be a mentor to the
00:21:57 --> 00:21:59 next generation of leaders. And I know that you
00:21:59 --> 00:22:02 take that very seriously. Find a CFO or somebody
00:22:02 --> 00:22:05 who's a mentor that you don't work for. Find
00:22:05 --> 00:22:08 a CFO in a different but similar company. The
00:22:08 --> 00:22:10 other thing is when I wrote my first book one
00:22:10 --> 00:22:12 of the women I interviewed She was a controller
00:22:12 --> 00:22:16 and her mentor was a VP of sales You know, she
00:22:16 --> 00:22:20 was like 29 30 at the time and kind of savvy,
00:22:20 --> 00:22:23 you know I we were both in our 50s when I interviewed
00:22:23 --> 00:22:26 her But you know, it's looking back. I'm like
00:22:26 --> 00:22:27 that was kind of you know, you're a little bit
00:22:27 --> 00:22:29 ahead of the curve But what was the thinking
00:22:29 --> 00:22:32 and she said, you know not in an arrogant way,
00:22:32 --> 00:22:35 but she said I actually know I knew the debits
00:22:35 --> 00:22:37 and credits better than my bosses did. She was
00:22:37 --> 00:22:40 a divisional controller. I won't say the company,
00:22:40 --> 00:22:43 but 100 % you've heard of it. So they had a lot
00:22:43 --> 00:22:45 of divisions. She was a divisional controller
00:22:45 --> 00:22:49 and she aspired to be a divisional CFO. And today
00:22:49 --> 00:22:55 she's a CFO, DCFO. But she said, getting better
00:22:55 --> 00:22:57 at debits and credits and even some finance,
00:22:58 --> 00:23:00 that wasn't going to get me the job. And it wasn't
00:23:00 --> 00:23:02 going to make me better in the job when I got
00:23:02 --> 00:23:04 it. So she thought if she could understand the
00:23:04 --> 00:23:06 business from the perspective of a customer,
00:23:07 --> 00:23:10 why the customer is interested in this company,
00:23:10 --> 00:23:13 what it means to be a customer, what we can do
00:23:13 --> 00:23:15 to support sales growth, I thought that would
00:23:15 --> 00:23:19 make me a better CFO when the time came. And
00:23:19 --> 00:23:21 again, I don't mean to be condescending to people
00:23:21 --> 00:23:24 with 30, but That was pretty wise for a 30 -year
00:23:24 --> 00:23:28 -old, right? Yes, absolutely. Especially back
00:23:28 --> 00:23:33 in, say, 1995, whenever this was. I'm not exactly
00:23:33 --> 00:23:36 sure. There's a reason she remains as successful
00:23:36 --> 00:23:39 as the CFO she is today. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:23:39 --> 00:23:42 Thank you. That's so good. Because I agree. I
00:23:42 --> 00:23:45 think for me what helped me at some point was
00:23:45 --> 00:23:48 expanding my network beyond just people in finance
00:23:48 --> 00:23:50 and accounting, because you do feel better. But
00:23:50 --> 00:23:52 then I started reaching out to people in the
00:23:52 --> 00:23:55 supply chain, in marketing. And that really helped
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58 stretch my thinking overall and spending more
00:23:58 --> 00:24:00 time with programs and sales. Thank you so much
00:24:00 --> 00:24:03 for that advice. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm
00:24:03 --> 00:24:05 glad to because like, you know, network with
00:24:05 --> 00:24:07 financial people, you'll just become a better
00:24:07 --> 00:24:09 controller. That's great. Controller. You can
00:24:09 --> 00:24:11 make good money as a controller. It's a it's
00:24:11 --> 00:24:14 an important job. You know, there are some people
00:24:14 --> 00:24:16 they want to be a controller, and that's fantastic.
00:24:16 --> 00:24:18 But if you aspire to be an executive leader,
00:24:19 --> 00:24:20 you know, you do need to broaden that skill set
00:24:20 --> 00:24:24 in that network. So. So what would you say beyond
00:24:24 --> 00:24:27 just reaching out to people in other functions
00:24:27 --> 00:24:30 and that can say, what else can be done? Because
00:24:30 --> 00:24:32 I realized, especially when I was a controller,
00:24:32 --> 00:24:35 you only have so much time, so much spare time.
00:24:36 --> 00:24:37 What would you say are some of the ways you can
00:24:37 --> 00:24:41 elevate what you do or find ways to still connect
00:24:41 --> 00:24:45 with others? It's great if your boss feels like
00:24:45 --> 00:24:48 he or she has a stake in your career. So they're
00:24:48 --> 00:24:50 invested in your success. And there was another
00:24:50 --> 00:24:53 CFO that I interviewed for the book, but she's
00:24:53 --> 00:24:55 more of a smaller company CFO. She's worked for
00:24:55 --> 00:24:57 a series of venture backed startups in the Boston
00:24:57 --> 00:25:01 area. And she told me at the time she had like
00:25:01 --> 00:25:04 there were 12 controllers who had worked for
00:25:04 --> 00:25:08 her during her career as a CFO. She boasted about
00:25:08 --> 00:25:11 the controllers the way Harvard boasts about
00:25:11 --> 00:25:15 its alumni, because I think out of the 12, like
00:25:15 --> 00:25:19 nine of them were CFOs in the next job. She exposed
00:25:19 --> 00:25:21 them to things. She's like, She's up front. Look,
00:25:21 --> 00:25:23 I don't think you're going to work here much
00:25:23 --> 00:25:26 more than three or four years. And if you do,
00:25:26 --> 00:25:30 maybe I failed you. I want your next job to be
00:25:30 --> 00:25:33 a CFO. And I brag is not the word, but you know,
00:25:33 --> 00:25:35 she's she she takes a lot of pride and she still
00:25:35 --> 00:25:38 remains a mentor to them. But find a boss like
00:25:38 --> 00:25:40 that. She couldn't let the controller present
00:25:40 --> 00:25:43 at board meetings, but she did let the controller
00:25:43 --> 00:25:47 sit in a little bit on the presentation. that
00:25:47 --> 00:25:50 did two things for the controller. One, it exposed
00:25:50 --> 00:25:53 them to the dynamic of board meetings. The other
00:25:53 --> 00:25:56 thing is, knowing her, she was probably pretty
00:25:56 --> 00:25:58 effusive in her praise. And she's like, hey,
00:25:59 --> 00:26:00 I just want to introduce you to my controller.
00:26:01 --> 00:26:03 He's great. He helped me prepare all the package.
00:26:04 --> 00:26:07 This is the CFO in next portfolio company. She
00:26:07 --> 00:26:11 was helping him build her network. Some would
00:26:11 --> 00:26:14 argue to her own detriment, but she felt like,
00:26:14 --> 00:26:17 I'm a good leader. I have a responsibility to
00:26:17 --> 00:26:19 help my team maximize their potential. If that
00:26:19 --> 00:26:22 means somewhere else, so be it. I can get another
00:26:22 --> 00:26:25 controller and I think I offer a good package
00:26:25 --> 00:26:27 to recruit controllers. And she's never had trouble
00:26:27 --> 00:26:30 finding a controller, even though a lot of other
00:26:30 --> 00:26:33 CFOs do, so. Oh, yeah. I mean, interviewing,
00:26:33 --> 00:26:35 I can only imagine interviewing for a person
00:26:35 --> 00:26:36 like that. You want to work for them, right?
00:26:37 --> 00:26:38 Because you're interviewing for the job, but
00:26:38 --> 00:26:41 really interviewing for the boss because they
00:26:41 --> 00:26:44 have so much say in the direction of a career.
00:26:44 --> 00:26:47 So. That's inspiring. Can't wait to get your
00:26:47 --> 00:26:50 book. Well, that one's in Secrets of Rockstar
00:26:50 --> 00:26:54 CFOs. OK, so I have to catch up. Well, you know,
00:26:54 --> 00:26:56 my wife teases me and a lot of people tease me
00:26:56 --> 00:26:59 because if you've seen the book, it's, you know,
00:26:59 --> 00:27:02 yes, with a leather jacket. Yeah, it's five thousand
00:27:02 --> 00:27:05 words. You know, it's my wife says it's not a
00:27:05 --> 00:27:08 book. It's a pamphlet. She's mean. Yeah. The
00:27:08 --> 00:27:12 latest one she was telling her mother, Jack's
00:27:12 --> 00:27:14 now written three books. One of them was good.
00:27:15 --> 00:27:20 Come on, really? She didn't like my latest, so...
00:27:20 --> 00:27:24 Oh, well. She liked the Psychopathic CEO book,
00:27:24 --> 00:27:27 but which... Okay. Yeah, I think it's the best
00:27:27 --> 00:27:29 of the three books. Not to knock the one that
00:27:29 --> 00:27:32 I guess I'm supposed to be promoting, but, you
00:27:32 --> 00:27:36 know, it's a good solid book. She's amazing.
00:27:36 --> 00:27:39 I can tell she's your right match. Oh, yeah.
00:27:39 --> 00:27:41 Well, you know, I gave them, the first one came
00:27:41 --> 00:27:43 out, again, it's pretty small. I gave it to my
00:27:43 --> 00:27:45 sisters at Christmas. I mean, it wasn't the gift.
00:27:45 --> 00:27:47 I just was singing them at Christmas, so I gave
00:27:47 --> 00:27:51 them a copy. I get back home. I get a picture
00:27:51 --> 00:27:54 from my sister. It's a picture of my book next
00:27:54 --> 00:27:58 to Atlas Shrugged, which is huge. It's like,
00:27:58 --> 00:28:01 which do you think was the greater literary accomplishment?
00:28:01 --> 00:28:06 Come on, really? You can't let me enjoy that
00:28:06 --> 00:28:09 I'm a published author. Yes, yes. Tough love.
00:28:10 --> 00:28:12 I'm sure they're so proud of you, though. Yeah,
00:28:12 --> 00:28:15 they are, yes. You've done so much. I mean, not
00:28:15 --> 00:28:17 only in the companies that you led, but also
00:28:17 --> 00:28:20 helping the next generation of leaders such as
00:28:20 --> 00:28:23 myself. So thank you so, so much. I do have two
00:28:23 --> 00:28:27 more questions for you. OK. One, what's the best
00:28:27 --> 00:28:30 career advice you've ever received? I mean, a
00:28:30 --> 00:28:33 lot of people say, you know, follow your passion.
00:28:33 --> 00:28:37 And I got that advice young. I was an accountant.
00:28:38 --> 00:28:41 It's a little hard to do. It's like find companies
00:28:41 --> 00:28:43 that you want to work for that are interesting.
00:28:43 --> 00:28:47 Do good things. But a little bit on the more
00:28:47 --> 00:28:51 practical side, somebody told me, update your
00:28:51 --> 00:28:54 resume every three or every six months, even
00:28:54 --> 00:28:58 if you're not looking for a job. And do it right.
00:28:58 --> 00:29:00 Don't just do it imperfectly. Spend a little
00:29:00 --> 00:29:04 bit of time doing it. And the reason is If you've
00:29:04 --> 00:29:06 worked six months and you can't add an accomplishment
00:29:06 --> 00:29:09 or a skill that you developed or something like
00:29:09 --> 00:29:13 that to the resume, you're stagnating. Wow. So
00:29:13 --> 00:29:15 it's like, and this was my boss, by the way,
00:29:15 --> 00:29:17 you know, I worked for him. He's like, I do know
00:29:17 --> 00:29:18 where to leave. I don't want to take it that
00:29:18 --> 00:29:21 way. But, you know, if you can't think of something
00:29:21 --> 00:29:25 you've learned in the last six months, let's
00:29:25 --> 00:29:26 think about that means, you know, because you're
00:29:26 --> 00:29:30 growing. It's a fast paced world. It's always
00:29:30 --> 00:29:32 changing. You need to keep up. You don't want
00:29:32 --> 00:29:34 to be like outdated by the time you're 35 years
00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 old, right? You know, I'm going to work 30 years
00:29:37 --> 00:29:40 after that. So I thought that was really, really
00:29:40 --> 00:29:44 terrific advice. So absolutely. Wow. Will do.
00:29:44 --> 00:29:48 But it's so true because the years go by so quickly.
00:29:48 --> 00:29:50 The other day, my daughter, she's 11, she gets,
00:29:50 --> 00:29:53 oh, mommy, I'm almost your height. I'm like,
00:29:53 --> 00:29:56 gosh, 11 years just went by. And I can see how
00:29:56 --> 00:29:59 this, if you don't do it regularly, time will
00:29:59 --> 00:30:01 just pass by and you've been stagnant. You don't
00:30:01 --> 00:30:05 even know it. Yeah, I turned 61 next month, and
00:30:05 --> 00:30:08 I don't know how that's possible. You know, when
00:30:08 --> 00:30:12 I was 30, 60 just seemed so old. And now 30 seems
00:30:12 --> 00:30:15 so young. Isn't that funny? Yeah, I like to say
00:30:15 --> 00:30:21 that I'm 35 years old. I like that. So my little
00:30:21 --> 00:30:23 brother is like, Waseea, you do know I'm like
00:30:23 --> 00:30:25 turning 36. I'm like, I don't care. I'm going
00:30:25 --> 00:30:29 to be 35 for a long time. A long, long time.
00:30:30 --> 00:30:34 So yeah. So good. My last question is, what's
00:30:34 --> 00:30:36 your favorite thing to do outside work? Well,
00:30:37 --> 00:30:39 you know, it's I am the father, I think, you
00:30:39 --> 00:30:42 know, of two autistic adult sons. They take up
00:30:42 --> 00:30:44 my time. They don't have a lot of independence.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:47 So and it's challenging. I mean, you know, being
00:30:47 --> 00:30:50 being the father to two children like that, it's
00:30:50 --> 00:30:52 the hardest thing I've ever done. But, you know,
00:30:52 --> 00:30:55 it's also, you know, the greatest joy. Just being
00:30:55 --> 00:30:59 with them is probably it. If you're thinking
00:30:59 --> 00:31:01 more along the lines of a hobby. I slowed down
00:31:01 --> 00:31:03 a little bit, but I'm a bit of a workout warrior.
00:31:04 --> 00:31:07 I work out, you know, pretty intensely sometimes.
00:31:07 --> 00:31:09 Right now I'm in a period of not so intense.
00:31:09 --> 00:31:12 That's kind of the me time. Right. But let's
00:31:12 --> 00:31:16 go to the gym. I recently tried to get current
00:31:16 --> 00:31:21 with modern music. OK. My knowledge of pop music
00:31:21 --> 00:31:25 stopped sometime around YouTube. You know, I
00:31:25 --> 00:31:30 was. Well, I know you do yeah the 1987 that was
00:31:30 --> 00:31:32 like the when people say what's your favorite
00:31:32 --> 00:31:35 new band? I say you too. Yeah, they're older
00:31:35 --> 00:31:38 than I am But a couple of years ago and my nephews
00:31:38 --> 00:31:40 and nieces teased me for my lack of knowledge
00:31:40 --> 00:31:44 of pop culture so my niece asked what I thought
00:31:44 --> 00:31:48 of Taylor Swift dating Travis Kelsey and I said
00:31:48 --> 00:31:51 Travis Kelsey's gay and They're like what I said
00:31:51 --> 00:31:54 Taylor Swift the country singer. I thought Taylor
00:31:54 --> 00:32:01 Swift was a guy and they thought I was kidding
00:32:01 --> 00:32:04 but I wasn't so I just really boy I'm really
00:32:04 --> 00:32:06 I'm worse than my parents were at the same age
00:32:06 --> 00:32:09 you know you know my parents had some pretty
00:32:09 --> 00:32:11 good stuff and you know when my mother and father
00:32:11 --> 00:32:14 were like 30 this little bit Liverpool England
00:32:14 --> 00:32:16 known as the Beatles came out they had some great
00:32:16 --> 00:32:18 music in their 30s and 40s I mean they're more
00:32:18 --> 00:32:22 into Guy Lombardo and and Crosby I'm like I know
00:32:22 --> 00:32:24 less about modern music than my parents knew
00:32:24 --> 00:32:27 about my music. So I've been listening, you ever
00:32:27 --> 00:32:30 heard of The Pretty Reckless? Okay. Yeah, I've
00:32:30 --> 00:32:31 been listening to them and some other bands.
00:32:31 --> 00:32:35 Just trying to get caught up. The Pretty Reckless,
00:32:35 --> 00:32:39 they're touring with ACDC right now. So ACDC
00:32:39 --> 00:32:42 is my favorite band. And so seeing the two of
00:32:42 --> 00:32:43 them together in concert is going to be pretty
00:32:43 --> 00:32:46 cool. Oh, good for you. Good for you. Now I'm
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48 curious because, you know, getting better at
00:32:48 --> 00:32:50 working out is on my been on my goal for the
00:32:50 --> 00:32:52 past. I don't know how many years. So what is
00:32:52 --> 00:32:55 less intense workout for you? Because I saw your
00:32:55 --> 00:32:58 starter pack on LinkedIn where you were like
00:32:58 --> 00:33:02 super big, the AI generated picture. I think
00:33:02 --> 00:33:04 action figure was an action figure you shared
00:33:04 --> 00:33:07 on LinkedIn that was all muscled up. So I wonder
00:33:07 --> 00:33:10 now for you, what is less intense workout? What
00:33:10 --> 00:33:12 does it look like for you? Yeah, for the record,
00:33:13 --> 00:33:15 since this is an audio thing, I am not built
00:33:15 --> 00:33:20 like Mr. America. I only wish. But, you know,
00:33:20 --> 00:33:23 my core workouts, I just don't like cardio. I
00:33:23 --> 00:33:26 will work in some low impact cardio because I
00:33:26 --> 00:33:29 know to do it. But generally, I'm a yoga and
00:33:29 --> 00:33:32 weightlifting guy. Right now, I'm doing there's
00:33:32 --> 00:33:35 a program called Body Beast. It's a bodybuilding
00:33:35 --> 00:33:39 program. I'm not I'm not doing the diet of it.
00:33:39 --> 00:33:42 But it's pretty intense. It's basically nothing
00:33:42 --> 00:33:46 but weightlifting. Turning 60, I wanted to make
00:33:46 --> 00:33:50 sure that I was aging well. I found my old Body
00:33:50 --> 00:33:52 Beast workouts from when I did the program when
00:33:52 --> 00:33:55 I was in my late 40s. And I said, OK, my goal
00:33:55 --> 00:33:58 is I want to be able to outperform the 48 -year
00:33:58 --> 00:34:00 -old version of myself. And other than my legs,
00:34:01 --> 00:34:04 I can. You know, my chest and shoulders, I'm
00:34:04 --> 00:34:07 stronger than I was at 48. Nowhere near as strong
00:34:07 --> 00:34:10 as in the legs, unfortunately. Oh, wow. That's
00:34:10 --> 00:34:13 impressive. But I'm not doing it like seven days
00:34:13 --> 00:34:15 a week. You know, I'm doing it four days and
00:34:15 --> 00:34:18 then I stretch the others. Good for you. Good
00:34:18 --> 00:34:22 for you. Wow. Wow. Thank you so, so much. Any
00:34:22 --> 00:34:25 last words you want to say for our listeners
00:34:25 --> 00:34:28 and the next generation of finance leaders? Yeah.
00:34:28 --> 00:34:31 Well, you know, you asked me the best advice.
00:34:32 --> 00:34:35 that I got, and had you asked me for two, what
00:34:35 --> 00:34:39 I'd like to share with people, really simple
00:34:39 --> 00:34:41 advice, and there's a good chance your parents
00:34:41 --> 00:34:43 taught it, but just be nice to everybody you
00:34:43 --> 00:34:46 meet. You should just be nice anyway, right?
00:34:46 --> 00:34:49 It's the right thing to do. But it actually pays
00:34:49 --> 00:34:52 off in your career. If your name comes up in
00:34:52 --> 00:34:54 conversation as the potential CFO or something
00:34:54 --> 00:34:58 like that, people are not necessarily going to
00:34:58 --> 00:35:00 remember whether or not you were good at accounting
00:35:00 --> 00:35:03 or finance or anything like that, they're going
00:35:03 --> 00:35:05 to remember that you were a nice person, that
00:35:05 --> 00:35:06 you were a good leader, that you were a good
00:35:06 --> 00:35:10 mentor, that you were a good business partner,
00:35:10 --> 00:35:12 that you were thoughtful, and that you showed
00:35:12 --> 00:35:15 genuine interest in them. That's not the reason
00:35:15 --> 00:35:18 to be nice, but it's a really nice career benefit
00:35:18 --> 00:35:21 of being nice. Nice guys don't finish last. Nice
00:35:21 --> 00:35:24 guys finish first. And that's it for today's
00:35:24 --> 00:35:27 episode of the Diary of a CFO. Thank you so much
00:35:27 --> 00:35:30 for tuning in. If you enjoyed the show, don't
00:35:30 --> 00:35:33 forget to like, review, subscribe, and share
00:35:33 --> 00:35:37 with others. Our website is thediaryofacfo .com.
00:35:37 --> 00:35:40 That's where you can find all the episodes, access
00:35:40 --> 00:35:43 all the guest profiles, see their bios, and the
00:35:43 --> 00:35:46 social media links. It is also the place where
00:35:46 --> 00:35:49 you can apply to be a guest on the podcast and
00:35:49 --> 00:35:51 have information about how you can sponsor the
00:35:51 --> 00:35:54 show. As always, if there is any topic you would
00:35:54 --> 00:35:58 like me to cover in the future, just email me
00:35:58 --> 00:36:01 at ask at the diary of a CFO dot com. Again,
00:36:01 --> 00:36:04 the email is ask at the diary of a CFO dot com.
00:36:05 --> 00:36:05 See you soon.
